Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 154

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    That is for Mr Irving. (Same handed) That is a
 1Hungary file.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we give it a letter of the alphabet
 3rather than Hungary? It has one already. Is there going
 4to be a translation, Mr Rampton?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. The translation appears on page 441 of
 6Professor Evans' report, the first page that I intend to
 7refer to.
 8     Professor Evans' translation given on page 441
 9at paragraph 1, in the English begins "On Horthy's retort,
10what should he do with the Jews then ...", that is to be
11found in the middle of the German on the left hand column
12at page 256 of the original, "Auf die Gegenfrage Horthys",
13does it not, Mr Irving?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you please read from "Auf die Gegenfrage Horthys"
16down to the end of the first paragraph on the following
17page 257? I do not mean read out loud. Just read them to
18yourself and tell us please when you have finished doing
20 A. [Mr Irving]     (Pause for reading) Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you then look, please, at the translation in
22Professor Evans' report in paragraphs 1 and 3?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you agree that Professor Evans has accurately
25translated the words in the German from after "Auf die
26Gegenfrage Horthys" down to "Moglichkeit gabe es nicht"?

.   P-36

 1That is the exchange between Horthy and the Reichs Hausen
 2minister Ribbentrop.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Also the passage starting at the bottom of page 256, "Wo
 5die Juden sich selbst uberlassen waren", down to the end
 6of the first paragraph on the next page, and this is what
 7Hitler is recorded as having said, is it not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is in the subjunctive, so it is Adolf Hitler
 9speaking, quoted in reported speech.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Whether accurate or not, it is a report by Schmidt
11or the tape recorder or both, the hidden microphone, of
12what both Ribbentrop and Hitler are said to have said on
13that occasion?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But, if it is in reported speech, it cannot
15be a transcript of a tape, can it?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the way the diplomats worked. It is the same with
17the meeting between Churchill and Stalin. The interpreter
18would take notes as he went along but, as he interpreted
19between the two of them, he would take down what Hitler
20said, write down a note ----
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     This is not a transcript, you are saying?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     No it is not, but it is a very accurate transcript.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is an account of what was on the tape.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     It also accurate reflects the language used, too.
25 MR RAMPTON:     You have used it yourself as being a reliable

.   P-37

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Schmidt is a very accurate source.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not in dispute that it is an accurate account of
 3what was said.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     He was a professional diplomat of very high calibre.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could I then ask you to look at how you represented this
 6meeting on 17th April 1943 between Horthy and Hitler?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Apart from the mix up on the dates, right?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, there is rather more to it than that, I am afraid,
 9Mr Irving. "Mix up" is not the word that I am going to
10use when we look to see what was said on the 16th, but
11there is more to it than that, I am afraid. Could you
12look, first of all, please, at Hitler's War 1977, page
13509? It is the second volume, D 1 (ii).
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to start, if I may, with the first complete
16paragraph on page 509:
17     "Nor was the language Hitler and Ribbentrop used
18to prod the Hungarian regent into taking a sterner line
19over his Jewish citizens very delicate. The Nazis found
20it intolerable that 800,000 Jews should still be moving
21freely around a country in the heart of Europe-
22particularly just north of the sensitive Balkans. For
23many months Germany had applied pressure to the Hungarian
24Jews to be turned over to the appropriate German agencies
25for deportation to 'reservations in the east'".
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Note the quotation marks.

.   P-38

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. This is the 1977 version, I remind you, Mr Irving.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "It was argued that so long as they remained they were
 4potential rumormongers, purveyors of defeatism, saboteurs,
 5agents of the enemy secret service, and contact men for an
 6'international Jewry" now embattled against Germany.
 7     "Events in Poland were pointed to as providing
 8an ugly precedent: there were reports of Jews roaming the
 9country, committing acts of murder and sabotage. The
10eviction of the Jews ordered by Hitler had recently been
11intensified by Himmler's order that even those Jews left
12working for armaments and concerns in the
13Generalgouvernement were to be housed collectively in
14camps and eventually to be got rid as well. In Warsaw,
15the 50,000 Jews surviving in the ghetto were on the point
16of staging an armed uprising -- with weapons and
17ammunition evidently sold to them by Hitler's fleeing
18fleeing allies as they passed westward through the city".
19 A. [Mr Irving]     They would be Italians.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Himmler ordered the ghetto destroyed and its ruins combed
21out for Jews . 'This (that to say this uprising) is just
22the kind of incident that shows how dangerous these Jews
24     To whom in those quotation marks, Mr Irving, did
25you intend to attribute that sentence?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Presumably to Himmler.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your very next sentence is this: "Poland should have been
 2an object lesson to Horthy, Hitler argued".
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. This is a new paragraph. This is another topic, the
 4first sentence of the coming paragraph.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving. What you are trying to suggest there is
 6that Hitler used the Warsaw ghetto uprising, which in fact
 7did not happen until two days later, as a means of
 8prodding Horthy into taking sterner measures against his
 9Jews, are you not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I said quite clearly that the Warsaw ghetto uprising
11was about to happen. In other words, it had not happened
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Himmler ordered the ghetto destroyed and its ruins combed
14out for Jews. 'This is just the kind of incident that
15shows how dangerous these Jews are'".
16 A. [Mr Irving]     We are on the point of staging an armed uprising, so it
17has not happened yet. I can only repeat that.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Poland should have been an object lesson to Horthy, Hitler
19argued. He related how Jews who refused to work there
20were shot; those who could not work just wasted away".
21The German word is Verkommen, is it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, which means wasted away, to rot away.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Jews must be treated like tuberculosis bacilli, he said,
24using his favourite analogy. Was that so cruel when one
25considered that even innocent creatures like hare and deer
26to be put down" (the German word was getturtit).

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