Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 154

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    It is clearly unsatisfactory that I should be supplied
 1Mr Rampton also exist.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am with you to this extent, Mr Irving, that
 3I do think that I have to be told something by the
 4Defendants which at any rate makes it, on the face of it,
 5an authentic document. For all I know at the moment, this
 6was typed yesterday on some rather old fashioned
 7typewriter. There must be a limit to the way in which
 8documents surface in court.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Mr Irving has the document. Had this been
10discovered by us earlier, it would have been in our list
11of documents and he would have been enabled to
12investigate, and if he found it appropriate to do so,
13dispute its authenticity. I am only asking him whether he
14now accepts its authenticity. If he does not, I will shut
15up about it until such time as I can tell your Lordship
16exactly from which archive it came.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is what you need do, if I may
18respectfully say so.
19 MR RAMPTON:     That is why I asked if he was ready to be
20cross-examined about it. The answer seems to be no.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     The question was not whether I accept its authenticity.
22The question was whether I am willing to be cross-examined
23on it and the answer is that I was already planning to
24make the submission that I did to your Lordship, that we
25should be told more about where it comes from so that, if
26necessary, I can subpoena the remaining documents. We had

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 1a very good example with the cross-examination of
 2Professor van Pelt on that Feldofen document, where the
 3document has, on the face of it, a perfectly innocent
 4explanation until you know the surrounding documents of
 5which Professor van Pelt was aware, which gave it a very
 6sinister connotation. In this case it may be precisely
 7the reverse.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think what I am going to say about this,
 9Mr Rampton, is that you can return to it when you are in a
10position to say which archive it came from, which should
11not be all that difficult.
12 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not. I think I know the answer but I am
13not going to say it in case I am wrong. I am going to get
14chapter and verse.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then you can cross-examine on it.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I will find out which archive it is in and how
17long that archive has been open to us.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is right. I am going to put it
19in as 51, I think. Do you agree? K2 tab 4, page 51.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Of course I have already asked all my advisers around the
22world what their take on this document is. I have not
23been idle over the weekend, but I have to have time.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is fair.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I want to turn to something completely
26different, if I may, which is a meeting I think at

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 1Klessheim which I think is somewhere in Austria?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Schloss Klessheim, spelt either with one S or two Ss.
 3I think it is spelt both ways. It is a castle, a chateau,
 4near Salzburg.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That means that it is a place in Austria, I suppose, or
 6was then. That meeting, I believe, took place on 16th and
 717th April 1943, did it not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, if we know which meeting you are referring to.
 9On those days Adolf Hitler had a number of meetings with
10foreign leaders.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He met Admiral Horthy, who was the Hungarian leader. I do
12not know whether he was President or Prime Minister or
13whatever he was.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     He was the Head of State.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Head of State at Klessheim on 16th and 17th April 1943,
16did he not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     One of the topics which was discussed between them on both
19those days was the attitude of the Hungarian government
20towards its large Jewish population.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know how many Jews there were in Hungary, but it
23was a very large number, was it not? It was over
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Of the order of a million. I think there were 500,000 in
26Budapest alone.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You correct me if I am wrong. I am summarizing, my Lord,
 2relevant part of Professor Evans' report is page 437 and
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you. I was just looking for that.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     What I am putting to Mr Irving is taken from that.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is helpful to have the reference thank
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I hope Mr Irving has it. May I ask you, to save
 9my asking questions ----
10 A. [Mr Irving]     What page are we on?
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     437 it starts. Is it right, as Professor Evans writes in
12paragraphs 1 to 8 of the introduction of this part of his
13report, that from about the middle of 1942 until January
141943, the Nazis had been making attempts to persuade or
15lean on the Hungarians to be, what shall we say, more
16severe with their Jews than they had hitherto been willing
17to be, and in particular to allow them to be deported out
18of Hungary?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is correct, is it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Since the summer of 1942.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. So is it right that one of the topics discussed
23between Hitler and Admiral Horthy on 16th and 17th April
241943 was the Nazis' position that they thought that the
25Hungarians ought to buck their ideas up about getting rid
26of Jews from Hungary?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The Nazis regarded the Hungarians as dragging their feet
 2on this issue.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Were the proceedings at those meetings recorded by a
 4plan called Otto Schmidt?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No. They were recorded by a man called Paul Schmidt.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Sorry, wrong man.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Both are right. Paul Otto Schmidt.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     We are both right, Mr Irving, for once. Isn't
 9that nice.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     There were two Paul Schmidts, and also they were recorded
11by hidden microphones on disk.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. The discussions were reproduced in a book by
13somebody called Hillgruber, were they not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     The Schmidt records were microfilmed by a German Foreign
15Office official called Lersch, to whom Professor Donald
16Watt referred. Thanks to the Lersch microfilms we have
17that transcript, and they were printed by Professor
18Andreas Hillgruber in two volumes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I then please pass up two pages? Actually, it is four
20pages, but they are double pages, from Professor
21Hillgruber reprinting of these. My Lord, bureaucrats are
22at work!
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the bureaucrats are probably right.
24Otherwise I am going to get completely submerged with
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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