Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 154

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 1 MR IRVING:     On the following page, page 1674, does Anthony
 2Lerman, now on the headed notepaper of the Institute of
 3Jewish Affairs, say that he is going to fax a lot of
 4material to her?
 5 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     From your reading of this file, have you observed that
 7various Jewish organizations maintain files on people like
 9 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     It is quite clear, yes, from this file plus from other
10things I have read, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know any names of other famous authors that they
12have kept files on, both Jewish and non-Jewish?
13 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Noam Chomsky comes to mind -- I cannot think of specific
14names right now.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. Do you think that these organizations give a
16chance to the victims of their dossier keeping to have a
17look in those files to see if the materials they keep in
18them are correct or not?
19 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Not without a great deal of legal proceedings. I should
20say there are other people, like people associated with
21the Institute of Historical Review and other so-called
22revisionists, and they are, well, they do keep documents,
23dossiers, in there.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Did you see an affidavit in this file from the
25Director of a British organization, a similar British
26organization, in which he confirms that he provided

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 1material on me to the Canadian Government indirectly?
 2 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes. I do not recall the page again, but, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     And for the purpose purely of abrogating my freedom of
 4speech in Canada? Would you agree that is correct?
 5 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     That is correct, and there are several instances in which
 6your talks and so on were -- there was pressure placed on
 7organizations, hotels or wherever the venues were, to
 8cancel these talks and so on.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we are now going from the particular of what you have
10seen in this file very briefly back to the general, do you
11consider what you have seen in this file by way of
12evidence in my particular case, over the last 10 years, to
13be part of a group strategy that has been evolved by the
14Jewish communities around the world to protect themselves
15or to preserve their interests?
16 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, I think that anti-Semitism is, you know, a perennial
17problem, and Jewish organizations have developed very
18sophisticated ways of dealing with it. This is one way of
19dealing with it. Anti-Semitism or any anti-Semitism is
20fought very, very intensely. They take it very seriously
21and they do quite a job, obviously, of suppressing it,
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Whom do you mean by anti-Semites, people who go round
24scoring swastikas on synagogues or people who have a
25genuine grievance?
26 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Well, yes, the term they will use is very broad. The word

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 1-- I am not saying, I am not implying that you are an
 2anti-Semite, I am saying that people they view as being
 3detrimental to their interests. Some of them might -- the
 4term "anti-Semitism" is hard to define anyway.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen references in this file to the Second
 6Defendant and others describing me as being "a danger"?
 7 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Absolutely. It says right in the previous document we
 8have just mentioned.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Particularly dangerous?
10 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     The Second Defendant mentioned you as a very dangerous
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     In what way am I dangerous, do you suspect? Am I the kind
13of person that they think I may place a bomb in their
14letter box or what kind of danger are they referring to?
15 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     No, obviously, they view you as a danger because of your
16intellectual -- because of your writings.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     But a danger to what?
18 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     I believe they think it is a danger to their, what they
19view as an important, that their version of events be
20accepted as the truth, and that the dissent from certain
21of these tenets should be viewed as beyond the pale of
22rational discussion.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Finally, in order to pre-empt a question Mr Rampton may
24wish to ask, do you consider me to be an anti-Semite from
25your knowledge of me?
26 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     I do not consider you to be an anti-Semite. I have had

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 1quite a few discussions with you now and you have almost
 2never even mentioned Jews and, when you have, never in a
 3general negative way.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So from your discussions in private with me, or from
 5your perceptions of me in company with circles who might
 6be considered to be receptive to such remarks, you have
 7never heard me expressing any anti-Semitic utterances of
 8any kind or beliefs?
 9 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     No.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not think I have any further questions of this
11witness at this stage.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, was the material promised by
13Mr Lerman in the letter at page 164 ever provided?
14 MR IRVING:     It is identifiable in the discovery, but only
15fragmentary. There are pages missing. I made application
16for the missing pages without much success. I was
17informed that I could go behind her affidavit when the
18time came to cross-examine her, and as your Lordship now
19knows, I am going to be denied that opportunity. So it is
20a rather unhappy position.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But is it in this bundle somewhere, or not?
22 MR IRVING:     It is certainly in the discovery, my Lord, and it
23was of the nature of press clippings and that kind of
24thing which I may have included in part, but it would not
25have served any purpose in this bundle.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right. Thank you very much. That was

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 1economically done. Thank you, Professor McDonald.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I have no questions.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much, Professor McDonald.
 4There is no cross-examination so that concludes your
 6 MR IRVING:     Is the witness released, my Lord?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, you are released. You are free to go.
 8 < (The witness withdrew)
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, as I understand the plan, you are
10going back in the witness box to be cross-examined
12 MR IRVING:     We have one witness which we are calling on
13Thursday, I believe, Mr Peter Millar, in my timetable.
14I try occasionally to adhere to my timetable.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is Goebbels diaries, is he not.
16 MR IRVING:     That is correct. He is Moscow.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know whether the idea of reducing
18the ambit of the evidence on that issue has brought forth
19any fruit. If it has, well and good.
20 MR IRVING:     I did hear Mr Rampton mention that they were going
21to try and plead section 5 on Goebbels, and no-one would
22be happier than I, because I think it would place him in
23an indefensible position if they were to do that.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, that is a misapprehension. I fall
25back on section 5 if I need it, but essentially the plea
26in relation to Moscow is that the substance of what was

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