Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 154

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    "David Irving's techniques challenge the most educated
 1Irving's methods, the illusion is portrayed as facts and
 2his writings have been unveiled. Hence, while claiming to
 3be a legitimate historian, Irving can now be identified
 4with his underlying purpose, to morally rehabilitate Adolf
 5Hitler and the Third Reich. Given this accurate version
 6of reality, it is all the more clear why his activities
 7must be curtailed and why his alleged legitimacy must be
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is one particular passage, is there not, that you
10have read where they actually talk about the need to
11destroy my legitimacy as an historian?
12 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Well, I believe that was the main one. The final -- no,
13OK, yes, on page 273.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     The author goes into various possibilities of how to deal
16with David Irving, one of which was just to go for free
17speech, but the other suggests, it says, "In the case of"
18-- this is on page 253 ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     "In the case of David Irving", right?
20 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     It is after the indent quote -- what?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     The third paragraph, right?
22 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     OK, yes. "In the case of David Irving, in his brand of
23Holocaust denial, the ultimate response is to cease
24providing him with a forum to convey his skewed version of
25history and to negate his attempts to obliterate the
26memory of millions of victims."

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 1     And I might point out also the last paragraph on
 2page 276, where he quotes John Keegan: "No historian of
 3the Second World War can afford to ignore David Irving".
 4So, again, despite the fact that he is regarded among
 5historians as important, some one must read, there are
 6attempts to make, to curtail his freedom of speech, and so
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor McDonald, how does that establish
 9that Professor Lipstadt is part of this conspiracy to
10discredit Mr Irving?
11 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     To my knowledge and my only, the only linkage between
12Professor Lipstadt and this is the Washington Post
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What has this to do with the Washington Post?
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, this document was from Professor
16Lipstadt's own discovery.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that. It is a document that she was
18sent, apparently unsolicited, by the Simon Wiesenthal
19organization. What does that prove against her?
20 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Well, OK, this document -- there is not, but my impression
21was that David Irving has a general complaint about
22persecution by Jewish organizations and that is what
23I thought we were addressing here.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see. Thank you.
25 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship said "unsolicited". In
26fact, there are other documents in this bundle where we

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 1see the second Defendant specifically writing to all these
 2bodies asking, effectively, what dirt they have on me,
 3both in Canada and in the United States and in London.
 4There is a whole list of them whom she thanks in her
 5introduction, whereupon your Lordship will see from this
 6bundle on a later date -- I shall draw your Lordship's
 7attention to it -- that I made an application for specific
 8discovery of these items. Unfortunately, we are not going
 9to have a chance to cross-examine the Second Defendant on
10the completeness of her discovery, and I have done what
11best I can to establish what information she had. May
12I proceed?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, please.
14 MR IRVING:     Professor McDonald, have you seen correspondence in
15this bundle between the Second Defendant and the Yad
16Vashem and, in particular, with Professor Yehuda Bauer,
18 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, I have.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was the content of that correspondence in brief? We
20can look at the correspondence ----
21 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Do you have the page number for it? In brief, the content
22was to remind Professor Lipstadt of the importance of
23including David Irving in the book.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Had she not then included me in the original draft of her
25book from the correspondence that you have seen?
26 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     I believe it was that you were mentioned in that, but the

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 1clear intent was to emphasise you to a greater extent than
 2it was before.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     So Professor Bauer, who was the commissioning, the head of
 4the Institute which paid the commission to Professor
 5Lipstadt to write this research project originally,
 6received the original draft and he said, "Not good enough,
 7we need more on David Irving", is that what he said?
 8 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     That is a fair summary.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will see if we can find the exact letter.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 161.
11 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much, my Lord. I am indebted to
13 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     161.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you please turn to page 161?
15 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says, and it is fair to say this, in a letter to the
17Second Defendant: "The book is extremely well written and
18fascinating", this is 1992, "but I suppose what you want
19is a critique. What I miss in the main is the world wide
20perspective". Then he goes on a bit lower down to say
21that, in his view, the author has concentrated too much on
22North America and I believe on France. "Irvin is
23mentioned but not that he is the mainstay of Holocaust
24denial today in Western Europe". So what do you think
25Professor Bauer is asking her to do?
26 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     He is clearly asking her to expand the coverage on you.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Right. If you will now turn to page 163, a month later we
 2have a letter from the Second Defendant to an Englishman,
 3Anthony Lerman, who wears various hats. Here he is at a
 4newspaper or magazine called "Patterns of Prejudice", and
 5is it fair to say this is a letter asking her for more
 6information on David Irving because she has now been given
 7the job of shoe-horning this British author into the book?
 8 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, that seems to be the import of that letter.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does she say,"I am just finishing up the book and, as you
10can well imagine, David Irving figures into it quite
11prominently". Do you have in your files a few Irving
12articles from recent months?" So would you say that she
13is now asking for whatever various bodies around the world
14because there were other letters, are there not, of this
16 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, and she clearly views him as one of the most
17dangerous figures.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, the reason I am asking these questions is as a
19means of putting these letters before the court.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see your difficulty and I see what you
21are doing. This seems to me to be more relevant than the
22general sort of evidence that the Professor was giving
23earlier. So let us see what the reply was, shall we?
24 MR IRVING:     I hear what you say. I am very nearly finished, in
25fact, with the examination.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, this is not irrelevant.

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