Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 154

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    Are you dealing, Mr Rampton -- I am sorry to
 1dealing with the aftermath of Kristallnacht?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No. I made a judgment about that in the light of
 3the cross-examination this morning.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does that mean that you are not relying on it
 5or that it is something that you are relying on but do not
 6think it is helpful cross-examine on?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     It is difficult to rely on whatever Professor
 8Evans may say about it. It is difficult to rely on it if
 9it has not been put in cross-examination for Mr Irving to
10deal with, I would have said. I do not know what your
11Lordship thinks?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Could your Lordship explain what that exchange is about?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You should understand. You remember in
14the summary of case which has superseded the defence,
15there has been set out in really a very helpful way the
16various bases of the criticism that you have manipulated
17data and skewed documents and all the rest of it. Oddly
18enough, Kristallnacht is divided into two, (1) the events
19of the 9th, I cannot remember what it was, December, and
20as a separate section, the events following Kristallnacht,
21later events. What Mr Rampton has just told me, in
22effect, is that he is not really pursuing that as ground
23of criticism.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Would your Lordship forgive me for one moment
25while I take my orders?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not feel you have to decide this on the

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 1hoof.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I can always come back to it.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think one want to think about these things,
 4and there are other categories.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I am not going to bother with the Roman Jews.
 6That is just argy-bargy between me and Mr Irving and
 7I think I have had enough of that. I got the one line
 8answer that I expected I might get in relation to Hitler's
 9anti-Semitism. I got that this morning. Prewar
10anti-Semitism.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So we are now on Ribbentrop?
12 MR RAMPTON:     I have dealt with the 1924 trial and
13Reichskristallnacht itself. If I have your Lordship's
14permission, the last topic I want to deal with today is
15Ribbentrop's testimony at Nuremberg. Mr Irving, the first
16reference that Professor Evans makes to your writing is
17the footnote on page 851 of the 1977 edition of Hitler's
18War. I will need help with that because my Hitler's War
19footnotes do not have numbers on the pages.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     877.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but I am afraid my edition has no pages beyond the
22end of the text. I do not know why that should be.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mine is the same but I think I have been
24updated.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Would you like to borrow the book?
26 MR RAMPTON:     I would like to be sure that what Professor Evans

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 1says there is correct, that is all. If you tell me what
 2page is to footnote 2, I can find it.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     851.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     851.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Now I understand it.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I do not know. It is difficult for me to find it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That cannot be right?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not on page 851, my Lord.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The book does not go up to page 851.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I think it may be, Mr Irving, that Professor Evans
11was using a different edition than the one we have in
12court.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps he translated the number wrongly.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not want to spend a lot of time on this because all
15I am concerned about is that you should be sure that what
16Professor Evans has quoted in paragraph 1 on page 478 is
17what you wrote in the footnote. I am not able to check it
18myself because I cannot find it. It is a very short
19point, Mr Irving.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I left something out, did I not, allegedly?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I think you did.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So far you are pretty blameless, Mr Irving,
23because it appears that Professor Evans has the page
24number wrong.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     He may have translated it wrong.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is not much translation in the figures,

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 1is there?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I would not put anything past him when it comes to
 3translation.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     All right. Let us turn to page 479 of Evans where
 5the German is printed in at the top of the page and the
 6full text in English in paragraph 2.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I left out the last sentence, did I not?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did leave out the last sentence, Mr Irving. Why did
 9you leave out the last sentence?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that comes with the patch of being a writer. You
11are always leaving bits out of documents because otherwise
12you will end up writing eight pages of sludge every time.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know that I could accept that to include the last
14sentence has this effect on what Ribbentrop is reported
15as, or actually wrote? He wrote it himself I think, did
16he not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     He wrote it in his death cell, yes, when he was about to
18be hanged.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you include the last sentence. So it is not a question
20of his being bullied or interrogated or tortured by the
21Allies, is it?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I have never had the misfortune to sit in a death cell so
23I cannot imagine what psychological condition one is in.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, but you have relied on it yourself, have you not,
25minus this last sentence?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you include the last sentence, what you are trying to
 2do is to see Hitler through the eyes of people that knew
 3him well, as indeed Ribbentrop must have done.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     However unpopular he might have been with others. The
 6impression you leave is that in Ribbentrop's mind there
 7was no doubt at all that Hitler could not have ordered the
 8extermination of Jews because it was not in his
 9character.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not what he says. He says how things came to the
11destruction of the Jews, i just do not know as to whether
12Himmler began it or Hitler put up with it. I do not know.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But that he ordered it -- and the italics are yours, not
14Ribbentrop's.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     That he ordered I refuse to believe.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Because such an act would be wholly incompatible with the
17picture I always had of him".
18 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the part that I considered to be significant.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I can see that at once, Mr Irving. We are not going to
20argue about that. But do you not agree that, if you add
21the last sentence, then the picture of Hitler's
22personality which one derives from Ribbentrop's written
23words is a very great deal more equivocal, is it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree. It is a defeated man about to be hanged, who
25then writes, on the other hand judging from his testament,
26one would suppose that he at least knew about it, if not

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