Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition
Pages 141 - 145 of 154
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1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there really no indication even of how
2that Rudolf Hess's message was interpreted?
3 A. [Mr Irving] I did say, my Lord, that it trickled down through the
4system during the night and that things were then stopped
5but by that time everything is ablaze. The following
6morning Goebbels realizes that things have got out of
7hand, it is very bad for Germany's image, the image of
8Germany as a state of law and order has been badly
9shattered by this. But the hours between 2 a.m. and 3
10a.m., the crucial hours which I have tried to look at in
11this particular night, and we have the eyewitness accounts
12from Hitler's private staff, we have that one telegram
13from Hitler's deputy going out, very much in a negative
14sense. Mr Rampton says it was in a narrow negative sense,
15I would say it was in a broader negative sense.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] If you look at it in the round, can you think of a reason
17why Jewish businesses or shops should have been singled
18out for protection, if that is the right interpretation?
19 A. [Mr Irving] You can certainly see reasons why, my Lord. You can say
20the businesses and shops were probably a shoe shop in the
21centre of a big apartment block, and, if you are going to
22set that on fire, you are going to endanger a lot of
23non-Jewish property. Put it like that. I can certainly
24see that there are other reasons that may have justified
25the narrower meaning. But we have added on to it the fact
26that it is not only the acts of arson, but also the like
1have to be stopped.
2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I follow that.
3 A. [Mr Irving] It was a message that was sent out in great haste. It is
4certainly does not fit in with the general pattern of
5trying to trigger or to ignite things. This is very much
6with a minus sign in front of it.
7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Were the Jewish businesses -- maybe this is too broad a
8question -- and shops Jewish owned?
9 A. [Mr Irving] This came out in the subsequent enquiry that Herman Goring
10held, that most of the damage that had been inflicted had
11been inflicted on the German economy for several reasons.
12Firstly, the plate glass windows that were smashed had to
13be replaced with plate glass supplied by Belgium at the
14cost of foreign currency. Secondly, the insurance that
15the Jews had taken out on their property had to be paid by
16the German insurance companies. Thirdly, the stores and
17even the stocks that they sold were being sold on
18commission. They were stocks physically owned by German
19banks and being sold on commission by the Jewish vendors.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Would all or any of that explain why the businesses and
21shops were singled out?
22 A. [Mr Irving] Not at this time, my Lord. This was an ugly realisation.
23We are very well informed on that because two or three
24days Herman Goring held a conference at the Air Ministry
25which was recorded in shorthand, and we have the entire
26stenographic record where everybody is pointing a finger
1at everybody else and saying you are to blame for this.
2Herman Goring utters the famous phrase, it is about time
3that Dr Goebbels got a little bit of public enlightenment,
4which was the name of his ministry.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, Mr Rampton, for interrupting.
6 MR RAMPTON: That is all right, my Lord. I am just wondering
7whether I would go back to something else but I think not?
8 A. [Mr Irving] It gave me a chance to display what I know.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] In any event, Mr Irving, however you like to characterize
10that message, it is not, is it, a blanket prohibition
11against the destruction of, or damage to, Jewish property
13 A. [Mr Irving] No, it is not.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. My Lord, I am in this position now. We are all
15waiting for Dresden with bated breath, but the file will
16not be ready until tomorrow. We need help from Mr Irving
17with it anyway because the copies we have of his
18discovered documents are in many cases very difficult to
19read because they are photocopies of microfilm, a lot of
21 I have one more brief topic with which I can
22deal this afternoon, but I cannot sensibly make a start on
23Dresden unless everybody has the documents.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you cannot, you cannot.
25 MR RAMPTON: We are running to catch up with each other. We
26could spend time reading Civil Evidence Act notices
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: On what topic?
3 MR RAMPTON: On any old topic really just so that they are read
4into court. I do not want to waste the court's time.
5There is no point in my starting. Dresden will be the last
6of my Evans topics. I shall certainly comfortably
7complete that tomorrow and then I shall start on something
8else, as it were, more modern.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: More modern being what?
10 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's recent utterances.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Denials?
12 MR RAMPTON: Denials I think we have done, apart from Moscow,
13which I can also do tomorrow. The last topic, either
14Moscow or this, is where the speeches are made and who the
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
17 MR RAMPTON: The political associations, which means that
18I think that my cross-examination of Mr Irving will finish
19comfortably this week.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21 MR RAMPTON: Probably Thursday morning, maybe Wednesday
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a witness coming on Thursday.
24I cannot remember who it is.
25 A. [Mr Irving] Peter Millar. I do not think he will be more than about
1 MR RAMPTON: Which presents this difficulty, I am afraid, if
2that is right, because I do not think Dresden will take
3more than one day, perhaps less. We may have to find
4something to do for the rest of this week.
5 A. [Mr Irving] I can bring another witness. I can have Dr John Fox in.
6 MR RAMPTON: That would be very helpful because my Professor
7Browning is not arriving until Monday.
8 A. [Mr Irving] I can bring in Dr Fox eye this week.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is Browning your next expert?
10 MR RAMPTON: He is my next witness.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Rather than Evans?
12 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is a matter of academic convenience.
13That is the only reason. Browning has a full calendar
14after next week.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON: I do not think he will be very long, so I will
17have to have somebody lined up for the later part of next
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You said you had something else that
20you want to deal with.
21 MR RAMPTON: I do. I want to deal very briefly with
22Ribbentrop's testimony at Nuremberg. It starts at page
23478 of Evans.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you dealing, Mr Rampton -- I am sorry to
25keep asking. I just want to know where we are getting in
26terms of the summary of your case. Are you going to be
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