Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 154

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    So he would not have been around at what you might call
 1the material time that night?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that is precisely how I would regard that kind of
 3evidence, as iffy. But an interesting and a quotable
 4quote, and there is a great temptation with the diary of
 5Hassell to use the material because it is very quotable,
 6it is usually in quotation marks and very apposite, but
 7sometimes you have to resist the temptation.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. There is one thing about Wiedemann
 9that I got stuck on the first part of 278. I meant to go
10on to the second part, starting at paragraph 9 on 278 of
11Evans: Wiedemann claiming, in fact, by reference to some
12hearsay report that Goebbels had spent the night on the
13phone trying to stop the outrages which you represent as
14his having seen Goebbels do it. Paragraph 9: "In any
15case, Wiedemann's suggestions are incorrect. Goebbels was
16certainly not engaged in stopping excessive violence
17against Jews, as Irving well knows. What Goebbels was
18actually saying on the phone on the night in question is
19amply documented by other reliable historical sources.
20The Supreme Party Tribunal report of 13th February 1939"
21-- my Lord, that is pages 9 and 10 of tab 2 of the new
22bundle -- "states that when Goebbels was phoned at around
232.00 in the morning on 10th November 1938 with the news of
24the first death of a Jew in the pogrom: 'According to the
25statement of the deputy Gauleiter of Munich-Upper Bavaria,
26Party Comrade Dr Goebbels answered to the effect that the

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 1man reporting it should not get upset because of one dead
 2Jew; thousands of Jews would have to believe in it in the
 3coming days".
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a very poor translation, "they would have to
 5believe in it" is the German expression for "going for a
 6burton". So it actually means "would have to die over the
 7next few days".
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is the trouble, my Lord, when one tries to use Evans.
 9I am going to go directly then, if I may ----
10 A. [Mr Irving]     "Daranglauben" is a German ----
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Go, please ----
12 A. [Mr Irving]     --- vernacular.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please, Mr Irving, can you turn to tab 2 in the new
14bundle? Turn to page 9 which is a red number in a red
15circle on the bottom right-hand side of the page, bottom
16right-hand corner of the page. You can probably start
17with the sentence which begins "Der Inhalt dieses
18Berichts..." at the bottom of page. Do you see that?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     What page are we on?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 9 in a red circle, 187 with a stamp, 28 in print.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     The content of this report confirms this view.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Read on, please.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Moreover, the last main session in the affair of the
24trial of Schenk has resulted in the information that the
25first known death, a case for the killing of a Jew, and it
26was a Polish national, was reported to Reichs propaganda

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 1minister, Dr Goebbels, at about 2 a.m., towards 2 a.m.
 2"gegen 2 Uhr", on November 10th, and that on this
 3occasion the view was expressed that something must happen
 4to prevent that the entire operation, the entire Aktion,
 5got out of hand, became dangerous, according to what the
 6deputy Gauleiter of Upper Bavaria said. Dr Goebbels
 7replied in the sense that the messenger should not get so
 8upset about the death of one Jew. Over the next few days
 9thousands of Jews would be going for a Burton.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Can you just read on?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     At this time most of the killings could have been
12prevented, could still have been prevented, by an
13amplifying directive. If this was not issued, if this did
14not happen, from this fact, as also from that remark by
15itself, you had to draw the conclusion that the result
16that happened was actually desired, and at the very least
17was considered to be possible and desirable.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you finish the paragraph, please?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is terrible, translating German.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am terribly sorry and it is entirely our fault for not
21having a translation which you agree with.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Translating it on the fly is difficult and I have been
23accused of distorting and mistranslating and here I am
24going on the record with my translation.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is most unsatisfactory.
26 MR RAMPTON:     There is a translation in Professor Evans. It is

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 1one you will not accept and therefore I have to ask you to
 2do it.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Quite clearly, if he says that somebody is going to have
 4to believe in it when in fact the correct German sense is
 5someone is going to go for a Burton, then it is a very
 6gross mistranslation.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry about this. I know it is tiring and I do
 8sympathise. I mean that sincerely. Could you please just
 9finish this paragraph?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Then the individual actor or perpetrator has not
11only put into effect the intended, but also the
12uncertainly expressed but properly recognized desire of
13the leadership, and for that he cannot be punished.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right and so no doubt he was not.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He would be one of those who was not handed over to the
17State prosecution system?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Numbers were and numbers were not.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Two things about it, Mr Irving, and I do apologise.
20I will not make you do it again this afternoon or ask you
21to do it, I should say. Two things about that. It is
22quite strong evidence, is it not, that, so far from what
23Wederman said he had heard reported, Goebbels was not on
24the telephone that evening trying to stop the rot. He was
25on the telephone rejoicing in the death of one Jew and in
26the thought that many thousands more were going to die.

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 1Moreover, the one that did kill the one Jew on this
 2occasion was let off because the Nazi tribunal perceived
 3that he had been carrying out the will of the leadership.
 4That is right, is it not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The latter part is true. The former part I would dispute
 6or I would amplify it to the following effect. This
 7telephone call reporting the death of the one Jew is
 8stated in this document as having been shortly before
 92 o'clock, or towards 2 o'clock "gegen 2 Uhr". I think
10around 2 o'clock is when Goebbels got his epiphany, when
11the news came of the burning of the synagogue next to the
12Hotel Vierjahreszeiten, when Hitler was alarmed as to what
13was going on, things were getting out of hand, the police
14chief was sent for, and shortly afterwards at 2.56 Rudolf
15Hess sent out that famous message to all the Gauleiters
16ordering a stop to whatever they were stopping.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You just looked at the message?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but I think that it fits perfectly into the
19time-scale which says that it was around about 2 o'clock
20or shortly thereafter that Goebbels realized he was
21barking right up the wrong tree.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You translated it, the order from Hess is simply that
23shops and other things like that are not to be burned.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     The order from Hess says that there is to be no burning of
25shops and things like that.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right.

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