Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 154

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     If a copy of the War Path is here in court, then it is a
 2facsimile in that book.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it is.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It needs to be chased up.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Because it does have the important line saying: "This is a
 7repetition of the telephone calls we have already made",
 8when I was sending a telex to confirm what we said.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     It also has a reference number, No. 136/38.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This document I think comes from Berlin, whatever that
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The Berlin Document Centre.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and yours comes from where?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It came from exactly the same folder.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, there you go.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     But my one was more significant because it had the heading
18of the Deputy of the Fuhrer on it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that may be right. Anyway, is it not
20somewhere in court?
21 MR RAMPTON:     I am not concerned about whether it comes from the
22Deputy Fuhrer or not. I am quite willing to accept that
23it does. What I am concerned about are two things. First
24of all, it is time which is not in dispute between us?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     2.56 a.m. right?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then it is text. I remind you what you wrote: "At 2.56
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     m.", that is unequivocal?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Rudolf Hess's staff also began cabling, telephoning and
 6radioing instructions to Gauleiters and police authorities
 7around the nation", and these are your words, "to halt the
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. Now look at the text. You are not saying the text
11of my telegram is different from yours, are you?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I know the text of that telegram off by heart. I have
13quoted it so often in speeches.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I bet you do. Now tell us what it says, would you?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     "On express orders from the very highest level", which is
16always ----
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is Hitler.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     --- which is always a reference to Hitler.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I agree.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     "Acts of arson against Jewish shops or the like are under
21no circumstances and under no conditions whatsoever to
22take place".
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good. Then?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     "Please confirm immediately by receipt."
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is underlined -- and is it underlined in your copy as

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is not, but the words here underlined are "acts of
 2arson against Jews businesses or shops".
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why is it underlined on the copy I have?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     This is underlined in pencil, my Lord. Somebody has
 5underlined the copy in pencil or pen. It is not a
 6typewritten underlining.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But by whom?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. I have not seen the particular copy.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I cannot answer that. I have no idea. It may be
10some later underlining by somebody who thought the word
11significant, I suppose, may it not, Mr Irving?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Quite possibly, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Shops or the like"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is "like", maybe garages, little workshops?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The German is a bit big ambiguous. You do not know
17whether it is acts of arson and the like or acts of arson
18against shops and the like.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am quite happy with that, "but we are not here in the
20presence of a general prohibition against damage to Jewish
21property, are we"?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     They do not mention synagogues.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They do not mention houses. They do not mention
25 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes, they do not.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you remember Heydrich's telex which talked about being

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 1careful that arson to Jewish shops did not, as it were,
 2affect German property?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what this reflects, is it not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I think they realized now that the big boss is not
 6very pleased about the way that things are spreading, and
 7they are sending out the most briefest possible message
 8they can. Instead of sitting down dictating a
 915-paragraph message which is going to take ages to telex
10out and to be printed out at the other end, they are
11sending out a very brief message to saying, "This has got
12to stop".
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They are not. They are saying: "Jewish shops are not to
14be burned", are they not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     "And the like".
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whether Jewish shops, Jewish workshops, Jewish garages, or
17burned or whatever the like to burning is I do not know.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     We do not know, as I say, whether "the like" refers to
19acts of arson or stores.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But, Mr Irving, this is not a general order to stop
21damaging Jewish property, is it?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not a general order. He does not mention
23synagogues. He does not mention other property.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What buildings were the principal victims of this
25appalling two nights or night and a half?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Subsequently of course the Germans realized they had

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 1inflicted a colossal injury on themselves, because the
 2actual properties were owned by non-Jews and just rented
 3by Jews.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many synagogues were destroyed during the course of
 5this 24 hours?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Of the order of 100 or so I believe, several hundred.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All over Germany?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How would you put it in German if you were Opdemhoff
10writing on Hess's explicit orders derived from Hitler:
11"This madness has got to stop. All Jewish property must
12be left alone from this moment"?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Not very differently from that, but I agree he could have
14added in things like synagogues and things like that.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you mean "things like synagogues"? Hundreds of
16synagogues or 100 synagogues were destroyed.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but this is an order coming from Hitler to order an
18end to the damage. Even in the most narrowest, even in
19the narrowest interpretation this is an order coming
20clearly from Hitler to limit the damage.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, when I asked to you to translate it, and I did
22it deliberately, you are a good German speaker, you
23translated it as "shops or the like", did you not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     "Geschafte" is also businesses.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Businesses, OK. What about houses and synagogues?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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