Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition
Pages 121 - 125 of 154
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1 A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, we can share the burden. I will translate half
2tonight and they can perhaps translate half.
3 MR RAMPTON: I agree with your Lordship.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not mind who does it.
5 MR RAMPTON: Those that are important, as most of them are, we
6shall have translated.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good.
8 MR RAMPTON: But not, I hope, now because it would take too
9long. "The hotel management", you go on at page 276 of
10Goebbels, "telephoned Hitler's apartment at Prinz-Regenten
11Platz, and thus he too learned that something was going
12on. He sent for the local police chief, Friedrich von
13Eberstein. Eberstein found him livid with rage."
14What is that actually based on, Mr Irving?
15 A. [Mr Irving] Two or three sources. I secured the confidence of the
16personal Adjutants on Hitler's staff who lived in the
17apartment directly below him in Prinz-Regenten Platz.
18They actually received the telephone call from the hotel
19there and they went up to Hitler's headquarters to warn
20him that something was happening and that they had
21received this phone call from the hotel. So this was
22either Colonel von Below, or he was a major then, who was
23the air force adjutant, B-E-L-O-W, or the Naval adjutant
24Captain Futkammer. If I look at the notes no doubt I can
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] You just referred to somebody called?
1 A. [Mr Irving] Nicolaus von Below in an interview with him in 1968 which
2is now 32 years ago. I will try to remember it as best as
3I can. In fact it was a verbatim interview recorded on
4tape. The transcript has been made available to you.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Oh, yes, I am sure. When was that interview taken, May?
6 A. [Mr Irving] May 1968.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, but one has to be very mistrustful of long-remembered
8eyewitness accounts, does one not, Mr Irving?
9 A. [Mr Irving] I think you are probably right. By that time it would
10have been 20 years since the event occurred.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Would it not have been better to have made reference to
12the message that Eberstein sent at 10 past 2 that morning?
13 A. [Mr Irving] Well, I disagree, because the message does not add
14anything to the other messages that went before it. As
15his Lordship rightly said, it just repeats what the
16previous one said. It is also not physically signed by
17Eberstein. It just uses Eberstein's number which is a
18common German practice. They will send a message out over
19the boss's name, which does not mean to say that Eberstein
20was actually in the room when the message went out. As we
21know, he was actually with Hitler at that time having
22strips torn off him.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] We do not know that.
24 A. [Mr Irving] Well, I know it because I have the eyewitnesses.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] The eyewitnesses, I am afraid, will not do if they are
26inconsistent with contemporaneous documentation,
1Mr Irving. We know that, do we not?
2 A. [Mr Irving] With concrete evidence, yes.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] What concrete evidence?
4 A. [Mr Irving] Well, the evidence of the documents.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, that is right. Eberstein sends a message at 2.10,
6presumably some time after he has witnessed Hitler's
7apoplectic rage about the consequences of what he, Hitler,
8has authorized, and he sends a message saying "Carry on,
10 A. [Mr Irving] I disagree. If the news from the hotel came that the
11synagogue next door was on fire, and the telephone call
12went to Hitler's Adjutants, "Come and get your baggage
13from the hotel luggage room because the hotel is now
14endangered by the flames", and they then go up to see
15Hitler and Hitler says, "What's going on?", and there is
16this kind of enquiry that has begun in Hitler's apartment,
17all this thing does not take a fraction of a second. They
18send for the police chief, Eberstein, who then as to come
19over from police headquarters. He comes over from police
20headquarters. By now we are looking at 2 a.m. in the
21meantime what is happening at police headquarters behind
22Eberstein's back, we do not know, but presumably this
23telegram which has come from Berlin headquarters has now
24been forwarded to the lower units with his name on it,
25that is nothing new. But at the same time Eberstein is in
26Hitler's apartment having strips torn off him and Hitler
1saying, "What on earth is happening now? Put an end to
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] What do you mean "at the same time"? Mr Irving, your
4chronology, if I may say so, is sometimes quite
5extraordinarily, what shall I say ----
6 A. [Mr Irving] I am afraid you were not listening because you were doing
7something else. I think it is quite plain.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] I was listening.
9 A. [Mr Irving] It is quite s plain that round about 2 a.m. the important
10confrontation between Hitler Eberstein took place to which
11Hitler's Adjutants were the witness.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Why do you say it is round about 2 a.m.?
13 A. [Mr Irving] Because we know that sometime afterwards Rudolf Hess was
14then required to send out a message to all the Gauleiters
15on orders from the very highest level, ordering that this
16nonsense had to stop immediately, and if the deputy Fuhrer
17sends out a message quoting orders from the very highest
18level, we can presume, I think, without stretching the
19bounds of credulity too much, to whom he is referring.
20That is the kind of concrete evidence I am referring to.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am just going to break the chronology. It is not
22actually breaking the chronology. We will go on now and
23look at this famous message from Hess's office, shall we?
24It is at page 9 of this bundle.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Has nothing happened between 2 a.m. or 2.10
26a.m. and 2.56?
1 MR RAMPTON: Not so far as I know. There is something which
2comes after it, but we will look at that in a moment,
3because again it is something Mr Irving has got in his
5 A. [Mr Irving] I am curious that you have used a different version of the
6telegram from the one that I provided in discovery, which
7has the heading of Rudolf Hess's deputy of the Fuhrer.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, I doubt it. Your text says: "At 2.56 a.m.
9Rudolf Hess's staff also began cabling, telephoning and
10radioing instructions to Gauleiters and police authorities
11around the nation to halt the madness", footnote 49. It
12is interesting that the time is the same, is it not?
13 A. [Mr Irving] You missed what I said, that you have chopped off the
14heading or this version chops off the heading, which makes
15it the deputy of the Fuhrer. Also it chops off the line
16which says, "This is a repetition of the telephone calls
17that we have been making", in other words ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would like to see what you say has been cut
20 A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I am not saying it has been cut off this. This
21is a different version of the same telegram. Now the
22other one is in my discovery with these ----
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] That will be in court somewhere, will it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving] Is my discovery in court? If not I will certainly bring
26 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, look at page 9 of the bundle.
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