Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 154

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Absolutely?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     He is required to do that quite obviously, but in the
 3meantime this is very rapidly being overtaken by orders
 4from the boss himself.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say. Turn, please, to page 276 of your book,
 6Goebbels, the Mastermind of the Third Reich.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just scan -- well, I will read it: "What if, Himmler
 9Hitler, both were totally unaware of what Goebbels had
10done until the synagogue next to Munich's Four Seasons
11Hotel was set on fire around 1 a.m."
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Not that time, "around 1 a.m."
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Indeed I do. "Heydrich, Himmler's National Chief of
14Police, was relaxing down in the hotel bar. He hurried up
15to Himmler's room, then telexed instructions to all police
16authorities to restore law and order, protect Jews and
17Jewish property, and halt any ongoing incidents."
18 A. [Mr Irving]     There is a source for that.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is your account of the Heydrich' telex, is it?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Let us see what telex that is an account of perhaps.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is one sent at 1.20.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     276.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The footnotes are on 612 and following.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I would not have invented that. I would definitely have
25had the telegram in front of me when I wrote that.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Really? Well, let us have a look. What is the reference

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 1you give for it?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Nuremberg document 3052 PS.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     30 -- well, if you look at page 4 of the bundle, maybe you
 4have the number wrong, document ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 4 of which tab?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 1, my Lord. We have looked at it already.
 7This is the Heydrich telex to which you are referring I
 8suspect, Mr Irving, I suspect, 3051 PS. This is a
 9Nuremberg document. If this is the document to which you
10refer in the text, it says nothing like what you said?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, quite clearly this is not the document because it
12has a different number. I have 3052 and you have 3051.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say. Do you have that document?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I do not have it here, but it would have been in my
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where do you get 3052?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     From my footnotes in the book, my Lord.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You said they have 3051 and you have 3052.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     They challenge me with a different document.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, but where do you get the number off the document that
21they have produced?
22 MR RAMPTON:     The number on our document is on page 4, my Lord,
23bottom of the right-hand column, document 3051 PS. My
24Lord, on page 362 of his report Professor Evans says:
25"The footnote in Goebbels mistakenly refers to Nuremberg
26document 3052 PS instead of 3051 PS."

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     On what page does he say that?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The bottom of 262, footnote 262.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     262.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you going to want me -- I am finding this
 5extraordinarily difficult to follow.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I want to know on what basis Evans says that I have got
 7the wrong document number.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Are you aware of another Heydrich telex of this
 9date and time, Mr Irving?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     There was a whole flurry of telegrams that night. I mean
11I do not think how long we will be discussing this, but I
12certainly bring what I find from my files here for the
13court tomorrow.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to have to leave it like this, Mr Irving, that
15you have deliberately misrepresented in your text, and one
16can tell this, if it be right, from looking at page 263 of
17Evans, where the guts of it are translated, you have
18deliberately misrepresented the text of this Heydrich
19telex. If you can lay hands on a different telex which
20says what you say in the text, well, then I shall climb
22 A. [Mr Irving]     But, with respect, Mr Rampton, you are being perverse.
23I have quoted a different telegram with a different file
24number, with a different content, and you are saying it is
25different from the one you are showing the court.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Nothing more and nothing less.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, it would not be the first time that you have
 3given the wrong Nuremberg reference number, would it?
 4I am not suggesting that is deliberate, but it can happen
 5to anybody, can it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I am still going to tell the court of other examples.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us go on to other examples.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     If it be that it was this document which is before
 9you that you were purporting to describe in the last
10paragraph on page 276 of Goebbels, it is right, is it not,
11that what you have written in Goebbels is a total
12misdescription of the contents of the telex?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is ridiculous hypothesis. You are comparing one
14document with another. Professor Evans, if he had done
15his job properly, should have said document No. 3052 is in
16fact a letter from Adolf von Schirott to somebody else and
17totally unrelated to this issue. But he has not. He has
18just advanced the bald statement that I got the number
19wrong, when quite clearly the number is different and the
20content is different.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And the time is different.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     And the time is different.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, my Lord.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The time is different. This is 1.20 whereas
25the -- no, it is not timed actually.
26 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not timed. The timing actually fits

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 1because the text of Goebbels says: "The Four Seasons was
 2set on fire around 1.00. Heydrich", etc. etc., then he
 3went upstairs and then he sent his telegram ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     He could not have done all that in 20 minutes for a start.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- and bingo 1.20.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     He certainly could not have done all that in 20 minutes,
 7but we are arguing in the dark here until I can bring the
 8actual document.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We should, Mr Irving. I will chase it up and if you would
10be so good you too, but you may not care to. If this is a
11wrong assumption and there is a Heydrich telex which says
12what you say it says, then, as I say, I shall climb down.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Eat humble pie.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I shall simply climb down. I shall apologise.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us wait and see what happens, see who is
16going to eat what. Mr Rampton, I really do think that if
17there are perhaps eight important documents on the
18sequence of events that night, the night of 9th, I must
19have translations. It is just not good enough to hand in
20a whole lot of German documents and expect me to make
21sense of it all. I probably could but it would take
23 MR RAMPTON:     Some of them are summarised or translated or
24partly translated.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but then I have to dart around trying to
26find whereabouts that is summarized.

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