Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 154

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    Do you agree that the Heydrich telex again, whilst it
 1while it makes a prohibition against looting whilst
 2encouraging destruction ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     - and provides some protection for foreign nationals,
 5even if they happen to be Jewish, it also says, if you
 6look at the text of the actual document, in the right hand
 7column of page 5 of the bundle, once again that the
 8demonstrations are not to be hindered by the police?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But I am mystified as to how this takes us any
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a developing tale of what happened in the hands, not
12of Dr Goebbels but of the other branch, if I may call it
13that, the Himmler branch of the hierarchy ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     The executive branch.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     - in consequence of what Hitler had said to Goebbels
16earlier that evening. Are you following me?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So Himmler sends this order out?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Heydrich is Himmler's subordinate.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Rather, Heydrich does, in consequence of what
20Hitler said to Goebbels? Is that the proposition?
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, because Himmler and Hitler have spoken
22together before the dinner as well.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I know it would have no effect whatsoever on you,
24Mr Rampton, but you will notice that nobody refers in any
25these telegrams to having received orders from Hitler.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The one we just looked at did, did it not?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Not the one we were looking at present, not the 1.20 one.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Here we go, page 5. Look at the file again, page 5,
 3Mr Irving.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The paragraph before it starts (a), (b), (c) and (d).
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will you just read it to us in English?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     In this conference the political leadership is to be
 9informed that the German police has received from
10Reichsfuhrer SS and Chief of the German police the
11following instructions, and that the political leadership
12is to adapt their measures to these.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     So the instructions came from Himmler.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They came from Himmler, and Himmler and Hitler, as we
16know, had already been in conversation at just before the
17dinner on the evening of the 9th, had they not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it not really irresistible that -- this is nothing to
20do with Goebbels -- Himmler and Hitler had exactly the
21same sort of conversation as Goebbels had had with Hitler,
22and that Himmler had taken his orders from Hitler that
23this was to be allowed to go on and that the police were
24not to interfere, but that German property should be
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The answer is yes?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a reasonable inference. It is not in the document
 3but it is a reasonable inference, up to this level of
 4course. They are not talking about an immense nationwide
 5pogrom which was subsequently developed overnight. At
 6present they are talking just about a punitive measure
 7from which the police were to be withdrawn. Adolf Hitler
 8certainly gave instructions for that to be allowed, as
 9I make quite plain in the Goebbels book.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to persist in this chronological
11exercise because I promise we are coming to your famous
12order of Hitler's intervention. The next document I would
13like you to look at is on page 7 of this bundle.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is it in Evans?
15 MR RAMPTON:     It is 253, I think, my Lord.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
17 MR RAMPTON:     The trouble is they do not run consecutively.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I can see why not.
19 MR RAMPTON:     They go backwards and forwards. There is, for the
20future, a helpful chronology prepared by Miss Rogers which
21is at the front of that little bundle.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
23 MR RAMPTON:     It does not have all the cross-references to
24Evans, but most of them. That is how she is managing to
25coach me.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship will see an account of this
 2document, it is rather a bad copy in the bundle, at
 3paragraph 5 on page 253. This is to rebut something that
 4we will see in a moment in Mr Irving's book. He says,
 5does Professor Evans,.
 6     "Most importantly, if he (that is Eberstein)
 7really had found Hitler 'livid with rage' about the
 8pogrom, then why did Eberstein send a telex later the same
 9night to the Gestapo in Augsburg, Nuremberg, Wurzburg and
10Neustadt, repeating the order that the police were not to
11interfere in the 'actions against the Jews' which were
12taking place all over Germany".
13     Well, Mr Irving, what is the answer to that?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Right. This telegram is signed by Eberstein, who is the
15police chief in Munich and it is signed to the police
16offices in Augsburg, Nuremberg, Wurzburg and Neustadt.
17The time on the copy we have is 2.10 in the morning. It
18is not an original. It is the time -- it is a copy which
19has been made in Augsburg by some police officers.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does not get any reference in your book, does it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     A lot of telegrams do not get any references in my book.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is more important than that, Mr Irving. Can you
23look at page ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     The reason why is because this telegram repeats almost
25verbatim what the other igniting telegrams have repeated,
26and there is a limit to the number of times you can repeat

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 1a telegram without your readers getting board. You can do
 2it here in court because you have all the time in the
 3world, but my readers do not.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It repeats what Muller had said in his telegram before
 5midnight, had it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In other words, this is already old hat. This is
 7being rapidly overtaken by events, even as this telegram
 8is going out.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, yes, you say so.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not just me who says so. All Adolf Hitler's staff
11say so.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not yet been told what is in the
13document we are looking at the moment.
14 MR RAMPTON:     It is what written in Evans essentially.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Evans does not actually quote it. It is
16repeating the order that the police were not to interfere
17with any action against the Jews.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It is basically reiterating.
19 MR RAMPTON:     It is practically verbatim.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     It is reiterating the instructions from Berlin.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They are not to be interfered with, the demonstrations
22that is to say.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     What Eberstein is doing is repeating an order that has
24come to him from his superior headquarters in Berlin to
25his junior headquarters, to ones beneath him in Augsburg
26and the other cities.

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