Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 154

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    That is right. Now, do you really think that Muller,
 1some utterance by Goebbels? It has to come from his own
 2chain of command, has it not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we are not advised by the document as to what
 4actually happened.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. We are not, but we are trying to be honest, open
 6minded, objective historians, looking at the true effect
 7of the evidence?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Each in his own way, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the fact is, is it not, Mr Irving, that, if Muller is
10prompted to send that telegram at five to 12 on 9th
11November 1938, he has had authority to repeat what Hitler
12has already said to Goebbels, that the police are to be
13held back?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And he will have got that authority not from Goebbels, he
16will have got it from Heydrich Himmler or Hitler.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we are not informed by the available documents you
18have managed to dig up so far. All we can say is that
19these instructions are not broadly different from what we
20know from other sources that Hitler was saying, namely,
21"Do not intervene, fellows".
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, exactly.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     "Let things run their path".
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Do not intervene, fellows. Bad as it gets, do not
25intervene". Now look at what was sent on the evening of
269th November. Turn back to page 1, please. My Lord, I am

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 1going to try make this easy by finding it in Evans. My
 2Lord, 249 is the correct reference, paragraph 6. I will
 3read it from Evans, first of all.
 4     "The leader of SA group Nordsee, Bohmcker, in
 5the evening of 9th November 1938 issued the following
 6instructions from Munich to his subordinates: All Jewish
 7shops are immediately to be destroyed by SA men in uniform
 8... Jewish synagogues are to be immediately set on fire,
 9... The police are not permitted to interfere. The
10Fuhrer want the police not to interfere ... All Jews are
11to be disarmed. In case of resistance immediately shoot
12them down". How many Jews were killed in the course of
13this period?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I think overnight 36 were reported as being killed.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The eventual total was about 91, was it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The same order of magnitude, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, if you look back at page 1 of the new bundle ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Just looking at this telephone message from Munich, it
19does not really advance us. It just repeats what we know
20from the other sources also.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, it does. It is another event in the unrolling
22catalogue of events that take place during the night.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The only sentences of interest really to the court I think
24is the Fuhrer wants the police not to intervene, which is
25exactly what we know from other documents.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Is there any point during the whole of these events

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 1at which, on the evidence, Hitler intervened to save the
 2day for the Jews?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     You know very well there is.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     2 a.m., the message signed by Rudolf Hess's office of the
 6Deputy Fuhrer, on the orders from the very highest level.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is your version of Hitler's intervention to stop the
 8rot, is it?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Shall we look at that straightaway?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can if you like, but it would help me if
12one was doing there chronologically.
13 MR RAMPTON:     I am trying to.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought you were being distracted then.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, he asked. He knew what the answer was. He knew
16perfectly well I was going to bring up that telegram.
17 MR RAMPTON:     It is on my list. It is not 2 o'clock, it is 2.56
18actually, is it not?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     You have a different version from the one that I use, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But it is in Hess's office and he sends a message at 2.56
21in my copy.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but on my copy you will find it is headed "The Deputy
23of the Fuhrer", signed Deputy Fuhrer.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Absolutely fine. I am quite happy with that, Mr Irving,
25because it is 7th on my chronological list. We will look
26at it in due course.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, if you would not mind doing it that
 2way, it is going to be much easier for me.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I am now on 3, which is Heydrich's telex of 1.20
 4a.m. which we find on page 4 and 5 of this bundle, but
 5I will not trouble you with the German because I think
 6I can find the English, I hope I can, in Evans. The
 7trouble is that they are all over the place, but the text
 8is set out on page 263 of Evans.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Again, it does not advance us one iota from where we were
10with the previous telegrams.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think you may be wrong about that.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Except that this one comes from Munich.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It comes from Heydrich, does it not, who is a rank above
14Muller, is he not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     On page 3 we do not have any signature. We do not know
16who sent it -- of the documents.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I am looking at the bundle of documents, page 3.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, if you would not mind, you will see Gestapo to
20Muller on page 3 at 378 of the document.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     378 of what?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     378 of the actual document, page 3 of the bundle.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     OK.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry?
25 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. It is Mr Irving's fault, my Lord,
26I have to say.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     378 of what? I have about four things open
 2and none has a 378.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It is printed page 378, my Lord, of the book.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     It is an erroneous diversion.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Nowhere on that page is it evident that it is sent by
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 3 of what, Mr Irving?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Of the bundle of documents, page 378. We are looking at
 9the same document.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you are looking at the wrong document, Mr Irving.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 378?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     377, 378 is the 11.55 telex from Muller.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     And 378, the next item is the 1.20 a.m.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you would not mind, Mr Irving, if you turn over to page
154 of the bundle and then to page 5 of the bundle, you will
16see the whole text of the Heydrich telex.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Very good.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And it is signed by Heydrich ----.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     This one is now the complete text, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     - on page 6, thank you. Do you agree that the essential
21guts of the Heydrich telex are set out in English on page
22263 of Evans's report, (a), (b), (c) and (d).
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you agree that the Heydrich telex again, whilst it
25makes some provision for protecting German property from
26the consequences of arson against Jewish property, and

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