Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 154

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    Right. That is very helpful to know that,
 1was another Goebbels order.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think even Mr Irving is saying that.
 3Things had already happened before ever Hitler and
 4Goebbels had a conversation about it in the late afternoon
 5or the early evening. It had already starting happening.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that, but are you saying nothing of
 7relevance happened between 9 o'clock in the evening and
 8the date of this message from Muller? That is the point.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     There is nothing recorded in the documents as
10having happened, save that it must be a reasonable
11inference that it was all still going on.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I mean happened anywhere in connection with
13Kristallnacht, not the actions against the Jews in the
14synagogues there. Did Goebbels, for example, not make a
16 MR RAMPTON:     He did and, as we saw this morning, during that
17speech to the old party comrades at the old town hall he
18actually said on the Fuhrer's orders that this is to be
19allowed to continue.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It would obviously help me if we could be
21chronological about it.
22 MR RAMPTON:     That is what I am trying to be. The last thing
23I looked at was the Nazi party court report of February,
24which records what Goebbels said at the 9 o'clock dinner
25on the 9th. That is tab 2, my Lord, page 2.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is what Goebbels said in his speech that

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 1night, is it?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It says: "On the evening of 9th November
 31938 the Reichs propaganda minister, Dr Goebbels, ...
 4said ...". We had a translation of that from Mr Irving
 5this morning?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is one of the problems about operating off
 8a German text. Anyway, this is Goebbels speech. I am
 9afraid I had not realized that. Yes.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     It continued by saying that he said that the Fuhrer had
11decided on his briefing that demonstrations like this were
12neither to be prepared by the party, nor were they to be
13organized and so on, but however -- --
14 MR RAMPTON:     What he said was that, in effect, rather like the
15pogroms shortly after Barbarossa, it was OK so long as, as
16it were, they were anonymous. The police were not to
17interfere of course, which meant that the thugs could have
18a free hand. Your Lordship will find, if the translation
19is a problem, some translation of that on page 244,
20paragraph 5, of Evans, where Evans unsurprisingly makes
21the point that I made this morning, that whereas Goebbels
22might have lied to his diary, he certainly was not very
23likely to lie to the old party comrades at the dinner.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I would thought it would be the other way round.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     If Hitler had given him those instructions, he would have

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 1written it in his diary.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He did write it in his diary, Mr Irving, did he not?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have not looked at the diary on this, have
 4we, yet?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     We have not and, if we do, we will not find that Hitler
 6gave the instructions.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I must say I think it would be easier to work
 8off Evans than doing this.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     As I say, the problem with that is that every time
10I try and use Evans, the witness disputes what Evans has
11written and insists on going back to the original.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Vehemently.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then I ought to have translations of any
14documents that matter. Anyway, let us try and press on.
15I am just getting a bit puzzled by the sequence.
16 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, can I back? The starting point is the
17Goebbels diary entry of 10th November 1938, recording his
18meeting with Hitler, his conversation with Hitler, before
19the dinner that evening on 9thth November.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving has accepted that, although he
22translated it somewhat differently, I think he has
23accepted, that translation by Professor Evans is accurate.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 240, paragraph 4.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, top of the page, 241. The German is on 240.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     The top of 241 is Professor Evans' direct
 2translation. "I brief the Fuhrer about the matter. He
 3orders: let the demonstrations go on. Withdraw the
 4police. The Jews must for once feel the people's fury".
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is the starting point. Then Goebbels goes to the
 7dinner, and in effect says more or less the same thing to
 8the assembled company at the dinner. Then, so far as
 9I know from the documents, there is not any record of
10Goebbels or anybody else having said anything about what
11was to happen or not happen until five to 12?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What you have just said has actually
13clarified my mind. Thank you very much.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is probably my fault.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I am trying to go as fast as I can.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is just that sometimes one plunges into
18things and one needs to be --
19 MR RAMPTON:     I know. I do recognize. We are all so familiar
20with it that sometimes somebody who is not quite so
21familiar may easily get left behind and I do apologise for
22that. I will try to take it more slowly. Can I then jog
23back one step to page 2 of tab 1 of the new bundle?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     The Muller telegram?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, please.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Which of course is sent from Berlin, not from Munich.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I understand that.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is quite important, as Hitler is in Munich and
 3Goebbels is in Munich.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You mean Muller and Hitler, leave Goebbels on one side if
 5you will for the moment, cannot communicate by telephone?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It would have been an unorthodox chain of command because
 7Muller ----
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The strict chain of command would have been this, would it
 9not, Mr Irving? Hitler speaks to Himmler, and you
10remember there is a British diplomatic report saying that
11Himmler and Hitler were in close conversation before the
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Himmler speaks to Heydrich, Heydrich speaks to Muller?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Or, more likely, that Muller gets word from his local
16police officers that Goebbels has issued instructions,
17which we have heard about, for these kind of things to
18happen, and Muller then sends out this telegram, which
19begins with the words, "There are going to be outrages
20against the Jews in a short time all over the Reich", and
21the orders are that no one is to intervene.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right. Now, do you really think that Muller,
23whose immediate boss is Heydrich, whose immediate boss is
24Himmler, whose immediate boss is Hitler, would have
25written [German- document not provided], they are not to
26be interfered with, the demonstrations, on the faith of

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