Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

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1996 I. No. 113
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Monday, 31st January 2000
10Claimant -and-
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)

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 1 <Day 12 Monday, 31st January 2000.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving?
 3 MR IRVING:     My Lord, there are two or three minor housekeeping
 4matters left over from the testimony of Professor van
 5Pelt. If I can put them to you. There are five points,
 6actually very minor ones. Firstly, I was wrong about
 7Tauber in one respect and it is quite right that I should
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What, bending down?
10 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon? Bending down, yes. It was the
11witness Bendal who had bent down. The reference is to
12crematorium (iv) and not (ii) which was, if you remember,
13the one we were shown with the shutters on the wall on the
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, the 30 by 40 centimetres?
16 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     30 by 40 centimetres?
18 MR IRVING:     The shutters, yes, but obviously I was wrong on
19that. It was with reference to the other eyewitness.
20I was right about the air raid. It was on May 5th 1943.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You say air raid in the singular -- just the
23 MR IRVING:     Just the one. There had been an air raid before
24the document dated May 5th 1943. The night before there
25had been an air raid. You amy remember Professor van Pelt
26saying he thought there was no air raids until 1944.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was that an Russian air raid or an Allied?
 2 MR IRVING:     That I do not know, but it is referred to in a
 3volume known to the Defence, the Auschwitz Chronicle,
 4which is a relatively authoritative work.
 5     Your Lordship enquired one or two days earlier
 6what the reference was for the fact that Professor van
 7Pelt alleged in his report that I had only disclosed the
 8existence of the Almeyer report after it was referred and
 9after solicitors for the Defendants obtained it. The
10reference is page 390 of his report. My Lord, I have
11these points listed on a sheet of paper which I can hand
12to your clerk.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is probably a good idea, if you would
14not mind?
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you remember we described the witness
16Olaire, the artist, and I referred to an incident with
17sausages, the SS-made sausage from the victims , according
18to Olaire, and I was not able to find the specific
19reference. It is in Pressac, as I said, on page 554. It
20is on the fourth column of the page, lines 17 to 22.
21     Finally, my Lord, I asked witness van Pelt if he
22was familiar with a book by Mr Brugioni, B-R-U-G-I-O-N-I,
23called "Photo Fakery". He was one of the CIA experts who
24had first published the air photographs with the dots on
25the roof. That is the jacket of the book, my Lord.
26     Those are the only which points I wish to refer

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 1to and, with your Lordship's permission, I will now call
 2my witness, Professor McDonald.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just before you do, can I just mention two
 4things to Mr Rampton? The first is that Professor van
 5Pelt was going to do a little sort of elementary ----
 6 MR RAMPTON:     He was going to, yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     -- sketch, I do not mean drawing but...
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Diagram, plan.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And a little explanation of what was where
10and so on.
11 MR RAMPTON:     That is right.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is just to remind you about that. The
13other thing is -- this goes back a few days now --
14Mr Irving's various speeches on which you rely, mostly in
15the US and Canada and some in Australia, I think I have
16already asked if it would be possible to have, ideally on
17tape, the excerpts that you rely on.
18 MR RAMPTON:     On tape?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
20 MR RAMPTON:     You mean if they are ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On a disk.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that something you have got in hand?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it is all in hand.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good.
26 MR RAMPTON:     What your Lordship will get in the end -- your

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 1Lordship has a hard copy file of the denial passages
 2marked up already; for other categories of statement, that
 3will also happen -- is a disk also marked up in the same
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can see why it is going to be physically
 6much easier to handle.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     It is going to make it a lot easier, yes.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, can I enquire? When you refer to the
10bundle of transcripts, does your Lordship take cognisance
11of the entire transcript, even if a particular passage is
12not relied on here?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I have said this in court already
14and, if I have not, I will say it now. I really want to
15know what they are relying on. You can always take the
16point that it is taken out of context or it does not put
17the true flavour of what you have said, but the starting
18point must be that I know what they rely on.
19 MR IRVING:     Indeed, my Lord, but if there were other passages
20there which caught your eye which I would otherwise
21normally have required to address your Lordship on, I am
22not aware of that. There is a danger, therefore, that you
23may take these as gospels when, in fact ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can be quite open about it. Once this
25disk is to hand, then you can see it and, if there are any
26particular points you want to make on it, then you can.

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