Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Friday, 28th January 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY ELEVEN
2 <Day 11 Friday, 27th January 2000.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes?
4 MR IRVING: Good morning, my Lord. This morning I believe the
5witness is going to make a presentation to us, but before
6he does so, I believe I am right in saying, my Lord, that
7the Defence learned counsel wishes to make some kind of
8submission to your Lordship.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does he? Right.
10 MR RAMPTON: It is not really a submission; it is about
11Professor McDonald. I do not know if your Lordship has
12had a chance to read his two statements.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Glanced at it this morning, but only one
14actually I have seen.
15 MR RAMPTON: Well, there is a new version. It does not really
16matter because they are all to the same effect. I am not
17submitting that he should not be called, but I am a little
18bit concerned that Mr Irving has told my instructing
19solicitors that he thinks Professor MacDonald will be in
20the witness box for three days.
21 Professor MacDonald tells us in paragraph 4 of
22his paragraph first this: "The main point of my testimony
23is that the attacks made on David Irving by the Deborah
24Lipstadt and Jewish organizations, such as the
25Anti-defamation League, should be viewed in the long term
26context of Jewish/Gentile interactions".
1 I have a great deal of difficulty seeing how
2that main point has anything much to do with the issues in
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, this is very much a first impression
5because I have only glanced at it, but I did wonder,
6looking at it, to what extent he can really assist. But,
7having said that, for obvious reasons I am anxious to give
8Mr Irving as much latitude as possible. It may be that
9something admissible and helpful will emerge when he comes
10actually into the witness box.
11 MR RAMPTON: As I said, I am not saying he should not be
12called, but I am concerned about how it is that Mr Irving
13thinks that Professor McDonald should be in the witness
14box for three days when it is quite likely that I will
15have little or nothing to ask him in cross-examination.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We need to, perhaps, thrash it out a little
17because of the timetable.
18 MR RAMPTON: Precisely. I have at the moment got Professor
19Browning scheduled to give evidence on 7th February which
20is the beginning of the week after next.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving, as I said, certainly we must
22have him and hear what he has to say, but there is,
23I think, some force in what Mr Rampton says about how much
24he is able to assist.
25 MR IRVING: I hear what you say. When I stated that Professor
26McDonald (who is, in fact, our guest in the court today)
1would be here for three days, this was purely to make sure
2that the Defence had adequate opportunity to cross-examine
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see.
5 MR IRVING: Your Lordship will certainly not be surprised to
6hear that I do not intend, even with your Lordship's
7permission, if I am given that permission, to examine him
8in chief at any great length. If I do so, it will be
9purely for the purpose of putting before him, as a way of
10introducing them to the court, a number of documents which
11I have not been able yet to put before the court. This as
12one of the very points I was going to discuss with your
13Lordship this morning for a few minutes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, well, can you assume (because it will be
15the case) that by Monday I will have read and, hopefully,
16digested what he says, although I have only at the moment
17only got one statement from Professor MacDonald.
18 MR IRVING: My Lord, you will have been given Professor
19MacDonald's expert report.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is the one I have looked at.
21 MR IRVING: I believe that in one of the bundles I also
22included a double column preparation which he made as more
23of a way of explaining what he is doing here, as I see it
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I had better try to identify that so I know
26what I ought to read.
1 MR RAMPTON: I got it some days ago.
2 MR IRVING: About five days ago, my Lord.
3 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I probably got it, but I did not realize what
6 MR RAMPTON: It is behind one of Mr Irving's letters, a letter
7dated 23rd January.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let me see if I have it here.
9 MR IRVING: I do not really intend to labour this point very
10much when Professor MacDonald is giving evidence, but
11there are a number of documents (probably three or four in
12total) which I would wish to put to him which do highlight
13and, in fact, draw the connection directly between his
14evidence and this case, which will make it easier for your
15Lordship to reach a determination on its relevance.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. I do not think Mr Rampton is
17going to quarrel with that. But, as I say, proceed on the
18assumption that I will have read it so that you do not
19need to take him through it.
20 MR IRVING: I certainly shall not.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But with all he experts, a bit of
22supplemental questioning is inevitable.
23 MR IRVING: Perhaps I can just sketch the character of the
24document which your Lordship will be funded with when the
25time comes. They will show to my mind that there is a
26clear connection between the book that is the basis of
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