Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 205

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    My Lord, forgers have a desire often to be caught
 1out and they do not do the homework. That is my
 2experience. This is what puzzled us about that cremation
 3capacity document that they picked on initials that are
 4only on that document and not on any other document in the
 5entire record. But to revert to this document, I draw
 6your attention, Professor, to the third full paragraph,
 7beginning with the word in English "furthermore"?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let us read out possibly the first two paragraphs:
10     "You are reminded once more of internal
11instruction No. 35 of 19th June 1942 -- ", which we do not
12have, Professor, do we, before the court, so we do not
13know what that was. "As is clear from this internal
14instruction, Untersturmfuhrer Dejaco is personally
15responsible for ensuring that all incoming and outgoing
16plans are registered according to the rules in a book that
17is to be especially set aside for this purpose, and that
18loans of such plans (that is an interpolation by the
19translator) are signed for with the personal signature of
20the person who has asked for them".
21     This is indicative, is it not, Professor, of the
22pernickety bookkeeping that the Germans went in for with
23their documents, that things were logged in and logged
24out, is that not true?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Furthermore", it continues in the next paragraph, which

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 1is the important one on which no doubt learned counsel
 2relies, "it must be pointed out that we are concerned here
 3with works that are connected with the war economy and to
 4be kept secret". The words: "Connected with the war
 5economy and to be kept secret" are underlined in the
 6original. "In particular, plans for the crematoria are to
 7be kept under the strictest surveillance. No plans are to
 8be handed out to the individual installation groups, etc.
 9In connection with the works to be carried out, the
10responsible construction leader - I suppose that be a
11foreman - has to give instructions to the corresponding
12prisoner unit on the spot. I take it as read that all the
13original plans are to be kept under lock and key by the
14leader of the Planning Department". Does Mr Rampton wish
15me to read out any more, or is that sufficient?
16 MR RAMPTON:     Could you just finish the paragraph?
17 MR IRVING:     "Attention is particularly drawn to DV 91", that is
18"Dienstvorschrifft", is it not?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, Service Regulation No. 91, confidential
21Matters. "It is further taken as read that in cases of
22leave or inability to carry out duties, the leader of the
23Planning Department hands over the plan room in accordance
24with regulations to an SS colleague".
25     We can take it from this therefore, can we not
26Professor, that they were anxious that the drawings of the

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 1kind you have been showing us this morning should not be
 2shown to unauthorized persons?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact, it should not be shown to anybody at all who had
 5no need to know?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No. In fact, even people who had need to know, it seemed
 7to be that they were unwilling to -- that normally, of
 8course, in a building site, plans and blueprints are
 9readily available to the people who are actually making
10it, and in this case, they even had difficulty to do
11that. They use here that the only person who can really
12instruct these people, they cannot actually leave the plan
13there, but there must be a "Baufuhrer" and from the word
14"Baufuhrer", it is very clear that this is not an inmate,
15or must be a German, civilian or German SS men, because
16the designation Fuhrer was always reserved in this case
17for a non-inmate. They would have used for inmate always
18something like Alterstorser or some kind of designation
19like that.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are in agreement that this is a security measure
21designed to keep these plans that you have been showing us
22today, that kind of thing, away from prying eyes?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you see no harmless reason for such a regulation?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     A harmless reason?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I presume there is a general harmless -- if we are talking
 2about patents, I could imagine that companies do the same
 3thing with patents. But in this case I do not think we
 4deal really with patent information. So I cannot see what
 5the problem would be. It is remarkable that crematoria
 6seem to be designated here for a particular kind of
 7security, let us call it internal security classification.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are not being designated as the only ones needing
 9security, are they? They are just to enhance security,
10shall we say?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. It says: "In besonders, in der Plane," so in
12particular, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any kind of security classification on this
14document itself?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     There are never on any "Hauszufugen"; this is going to be
16available to everyone.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but there is no security classification on this
18document?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it could have been shown to anyone, could it not, then?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. I mean anyone who got a copy of this.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you seen any other similar house order
23on any other topic in connection with Auschwitz?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No. I remember this one. One of the reasons is that this
25one came up. I am trying to recall the first time I saw
26it. This was in the Ertl and Dejaco trial, and it came up

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 1because one of the people who had been in the Bauleitung,
 2who was an inmate who was drawing there, actually went
 3into some detail about the procedure of actually getting a
 4blueprint and saying this was a proof of the criminal
 5intentions, and then this document was produced. I do not
 6know what the court in the end did with this document.
 7But I remember the testimony of the particular -- I think
 8it was an inmate named Plas Kuhrer.
 9 MR IRVING:     Did anything in particular happen in Auschwitz one
10or two days before this document that you are familiar
11with, or in the neighbourhood? I will give you a clue,
12air raids?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, there were no air raids in 1943.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, there were. Do you agree that there was an air raid
15on the Buhne plant on approximately 5th or 3rd May 1943?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     1944.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     1943. Well, if there is a dispute, obviously --?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The Buhne plant at Auschwitz?
19 MR IRVING:     That is right, the synthetic plant being erected.
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The first air raid, so far as I know, happened in the
21Spring of 1944.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will check that later on perhaps. I have only two more
23questions on this document, my Lord, and this is this. Do
24you agree that the Germans had reasons to be ashamed of
25what was going on in this building, shall we say, whatever
26it was?

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