Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 205

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    I am sorry, Professor I am going to interrupt
 1but I think it really is going to be confusing if we go
 2into that argument now.
 3 MR IRVING:     While we had the drainage map in front of us my
 4Lord, I wanted to----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is established. It is linked up,
 6apparently or possibly, probably I think, to the main
 7sewage system of the camp.
 8 MR IRVING:     It goes to the water purification plant.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, not that, I think.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     So the major point here is that the evidence of the
11blueprint of these spaces, with these little windows right
12on top there, converges with the document which talks
13about the gas tight shutters of 30 by 40 centimetres,
14converges with eyewitness testimony which talks about SS
15men getting up a little stool or step ladder there and
16opening the gas tight shutters and throwing in the
17contents of a Zyklon-B canister, and it converges also
18with a detail right here that in fact it is difficult to
19see in this one that they are actually sealing, sitting
20right in here. The roof is not open to the rafters but
21there is no sealant in there. So why actually this very
22low bit here? It is around 2 metres high. You also start
23to put a sealing when you do not put the sealing in
24anywhere else. So this is as much as I want to say right
25now about crematorium 4.
26 MR IRVING:     Did these eyewitness you talk about see what was on

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 1the other side of the wall through which this stuff was
 2being tossed?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, they were on the outside.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This is crematorium No. 1. I think we can leave it. This
 6is at the moment the case I would like to make for
 7crematoria No. 2, and crematorium No. 4, and by
 8implications 3 and 5.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was going ask you that.
10 MR IRVING:     While we have that map up, can I ask you which is
11the fuel supply, which is the room for storing the coke?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This is it right there.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     The whole of that room. Can you estimate approximately
14how much coke that would hold, how many tonnes or
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I cannot, I am sorry.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does that conclude our looking at the
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So we can turn the lights on?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, unless you want to see more of the same.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I think I understand what you tell us
23about them. Thank you very much.
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Just for your understanding, in the last discussion quite
25important are No. 9A and No. 9B in your bundle.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In tab 2?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     In tab 1. The important point is the 30 by 40, which is
 2seen there in the size of these little windows.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Before this cross-examination continues, I need to
 5draw your Lordship's attention to something.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     On Wednesday evening we received a document, which
 8we have never seen before, which I do not believe
 9Professor van Pelt has seen, which Mr Irving has because
10we sent it to him on Thursday once we had had it
11translated, and which has a bearing, or your Lordship may
12think it has a bearing, on this repeated question why are
13not these documents marked "secret". I do believe that,
14in fairness to the witness who I believe, I do not know,
15is not familiar with this document, he and your Lordship
16should be allowed to read it before the cross-examination
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this not re-examination?
19 MR RAMPTON:     No. I could bring it into re-examination but, if
20your Lordship would read it first, that perhaps is the
21best thing. It will save time in cross-examination
22because the witness will then be familiar with the
24 MR IRVING:     Are you also offering a translation of this
26 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Have you not got that?

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 1 MR IRVING:     I have not. I have only the actual document but
 2not translated. (Same handed).
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the second document, Mr Rampton?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     There is another document. The document which is
 5clipped to it is the translation.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have just been handed something headed
 7"Heinrich Himmler".
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think that arises now. That will arise
 9in re-examination.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where I shall I put this?
11 MR RAMPTON:     It is the document of 5th May 1943. It can go in
12at the end of section 4 of K2, just before page 49 if your
13Lordship wants to put them in date order. That means a
14different page number. I do not know whether the witness
15has it? I do not know what he is looking at.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think he is looking at the right thing.
175th May 1943?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, 5th May 1943.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor van Pelt, is that what you are
20looking at?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I know this one, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You know that one?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I mean I have seen it. In my files there is a copy of
24that. I had forgotten about it.
25 MR RAMPTON:     I did not know that.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, you have it now. Yes, Mr Irving. I

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 1am sorry about that interruption.
 2 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will anticipate the first thing I
 3will say, which is that this is not the way to do things.
 4This was supplied to me yesterday afternoon at 1 p.m. It
 5is a document of great importance, I appreciate that. It
 6is the document which I would have wished to have seen
 7many months ago. We have just heard the witness say that
 8he has had it in his files for some considerable time. If
 9it was of importance, no doubt he would have advanced it
10already. He may well have reached the same conclusions as
11I did that there are perfectly plausible explanations for
12this document which have a bearing only on one room in the
13crematorium concerned, or the building concerned, and have
14no relevance for the Final Solution, apart from that very
15limited aspect.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it is sensible to have an
17inquest as to why it has been produced late. That has
18been happening on both sides. The fact is we have it. In
19the end I am not going to ignore it.
20 MR IRVING:     If your Lordship is going to allow it to be
21produced in this manner, then there must be some manner
22for me to respond to the document. I seek your Lordship's
23guidance as to the appropriate means of doing this. By
24putting questions to the witness on this matter?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course you can. Indeed, why not do it

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