Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 205

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This is the original double door, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any kind of indication of what kind of door it
 3is, or what kind of handle?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The only indication we have is that it was a gastur, which
 5means a gas door.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not from the blueprint?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Not from the blue print, that is from the documents.
 8 MR IRVING:     In fact, of course, these are not blueprints, are
 9they? They are drawings.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     We call these things blueprints.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Architects do not. They call them drawings.
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     They are copies and this happens to be a colour copy.
13None of the originals, which was drawn on basically
14vellum, actually exist any more. These are all basically
15copies made in the normal way, and then they
16were dispersed. The originals were probably in Berlin
17because as far as we know they were kept and openly sent
18to the SS headquarters, and they were boxed.
19     I just want to show here that the most important
20thing is against the ventilation system sitting in the
21wall, this is the entluftungsanlage, this is taking out of
22air. This is the beiluftungsanlage, and here we are at
23what is the normal situation where they are not
24connected. The left and the right is not connected but in
25this one we see them connected at a particular point.
26This is just to show how you only need ultimately --

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 1because the left is connected to the right and then the
 2right is connected to the chimney. You do not have to
 3have a special connection from the left side to the
 4chimney, or connected to one ventilator.
 5     I just want to point out, because we probably
 6are going to go there, that the thickness, if indeed we
 7agree the thickness of the slab, was around maximum 20,
 8probably closer to 18 or 19 centimetres. If one looks
 9also at the kind of support given by this column, one may
10of course at a certain moment ask to compare this, if
11indeed the challenge or the suggestion is being made that
12this is an air raid shelter, if this indeed follows the
13kind of normal structural strength of an air raid shelter.
14     Now we come to a first declat. The first declat
15is not very important from an argument, except that it is
16a piece in a sequence. What we see is that the first
17modification has already been made, and in this declat
18this was created by putting basically tracing paper on top
19of the original. One of the things which is not of any
20interest to the architect at the moment -- but he does not
21actually draw any doors in so we do not know how the doors
22are hung. What is important here is that we have this
23sort of little leichenkeller, which is now much smaller.
24We have the leichenkeller No. 1. What we do have here is
25a kind of rather gruesome modification because this is
26called office. This is called vault. This is either gold

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 1arbeite or gold arbeiten, or this could be gold workers or
 2gold works. The question of course is what would they do
 3right here?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     What would you infer from that?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That dental gold was being probably ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Extracted?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Not extracted. It would not have been extracted here.
 8The dental gold would have been basically worked at and
 9would have been stored here.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, a matter of the utmost secrecy, of course?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I do not know how secret it was. This whole building was
12in a completely isolated compound.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will see if that is true later on when I show you some
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     OK. This is by the way, that connection piece right above
16there connecting the pipes of the side to the other side.
17We see here the staircases.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the overall width of that staircase from wall to
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The overall width of the staircase from wall to wall? Now
21you have me.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Roughly about eight feet?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This thing here?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I presume something like 8 feet.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     The other end of that space is the elevator, is it not?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, it is the elevator.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or the hoist?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. The space we talked about, the counterweights ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is not an extra space at all. It is just part of the
 5actual shaft?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. You see that there is some space left so that the
 7weight can go there.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     We gained the impression two days ago that there was a
 9separate channel for the counterweight to go down?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did not.
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I did not want to make that impression.
12     This is the coloured version. What we see here
13is ofen, furnace. But interesting of course is that there
14is no ofen in the office. We know from eyewitness
15testimony that of course the dental gold was melted in the
16crematorium, so is that the ofen put there in order to
17melt dental gold? It is a design, nothing more than a
18design, but certainly they were designing something to
19that effect.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     It would be a schmelzofen, would it not?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That is the official German, schmelzofen, but ofen would
22be a good shorthand for that.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think it is a very reasonable inference actually.
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     But certainly this ofen -- one would expect also to have
25if everywhere there is no heating. My theory is that, if
26this would be about heating those particular offices, one

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 1would first have expected one there, and secondly one
 2there, but this is actually the other way round. Why is
 3there no ofen at that site?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is a very clear inference obviously, which I agree
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     OK. I am going to show a few copies of this. This is a
 7new declat. Now we see the hand is very different of the
 8declat. In this case we know actually that the person who
 9drew it was Dejaco himself, which means the chief of the
10drawing room who was an SS lieutenant. It is very
11unusual, strangely enough. This man almost never makes a
12drawing himself.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     How do we know that he was the person who drew this?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Because it is in the box at the bottom. I am sorry it is
15not in this picture. In the box at the bottom it always
16says who draws that, who approves that and then finally
17the final signing off by Bischoff. Normally what you see
18is a prisoner number. In this case Dejaco's name is in
19the first box, and in the second box. He draws it and
20then he also ultimately red lines it, and then only
21Bischoff signs off on the third.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it dated?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. It is 19th December 1942. So this is quite late.
24Now, a number of modifications are in this drawing. It
25says again it is a declat number 32 and 33, which are
26basically for the standard basement plan.

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