Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition
Pages 31 - 35 of 205
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1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Whatever. I presume so. I do not know exactly the
2behaviour of flames in chimneys. But there is a
3considerable distance, yes, which of course is important
4to create the draught. Now I want to go back to the
5original design because we are going to the basement,
6which I have now turned around to be exactly in the same
7position as we are looking at the rest of the blueprints,
8doors open very clearly inwards.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] They open inwards into the mortuary?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Into the mortuary, yes, which comes later as the defence
11alleges, the gas chambers. That is in accordance with the
12way the doors open in these other spaces.
13 Now we get the second blueprint. The problem in
14this particular point of the presentation is that this
15image, this black and white slide, was made for me at the
16museum in 1990, and it is very difficult to see exactly
17what happens here. But, when you go to the archive right
18now and look very carefully and that is what we have done,
19actually that is a detail I was shown, one can actually
20see there a door, that the door in this original copy of
21the final blue print of 1942 still opens inwards, but in
22fact at a certain moment the way the door opens inwards
23has been scratched out, but I show the remains of it.
24This is what I tried to photograph with my assistant in
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that on this map? The one you are showing us? On this
2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes. It is in this particular copy not visible. But it
3is in the trial bundle.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] May I approach the screen and have a closer look, my Lord?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, please do. You are talking about
6photograph 3 on 3B?
7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
8 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, for reference at page 3B of section 1 of
9the second Auschwitz file, there is a small colour
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have it open.
12 MR RAMPTON: When the light comes back on again, one can
13actually see quite clearly, as the Professor has said, at
14any rate one half of the door opening inwards. It is
15probably difficult to see in this light, but it can be
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You need proper light. I follow.
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That is exactly why I wanted to show this so that we all
19know exactly what we are talking about, this thing, and
20what we will see is the remains basically of the door
22 MR IRVING: Approximately when was the alteration made in your
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] We will look at that at the next slide. This is the
25blueprint for that, for the alteration of December 1942.
26 I would like to show at the moment also some of
1the other details. How do we know where the
2entluftungskanal was, how the ventilation system works?
3For example, you see here, this is at the bottom of the
4thing, this little dotted line, which is the
5entluftungskanal. It says right here, entluftungskanal.
6Its also says right there entluftungskanal. This dotted
7line goes here and goes right there into the chimney. It
8is very clear. This one ultimately is connected over the
9gas chamber to this one.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Into which chimney? Into the main chimney?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No, into the chimney for the entluftung, for the vent for
12taking out the foul air.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] You have what is called a stack effect? We will come to
14that in a moment.
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] OK. Then there is a second chimney here, but it does not
16go down to basement level so it is not depicted at
17basement level. What is very important here is that we
18have the staircase, we have another staircase and we have
19these two entluftungskanal, and we have here the columns.
20Of course we do not see these Zyklon-B insertion columns
21because this drawing is from early 1942.
22 Now, one of the things which happened is that in
23these drawings they always use the same set of
24blueprints. When they create modifications at a certain
25moment, they only make a small drawing of the particular
26modification, which is put literally on top of it, because
1it is transparent originally. We see also that one more
2morgue has been included, we see here quite clearly how
3the door opens inwards. It opens inwards here. At least
4where I stand it is very clear. So this was never taken
5out with some razor blades.
6 You see, by the way, just at this level we see
7also very clearly these underground flues. As they then
8are joined these two are then connected above with one
9particular sauzuanlage going into the chimney.
10 Here we have then the elevation and we are now
11looking at the elevation of the building. Just here in
12the original 1942 drawings we see here the elevation of
13morgue No. 1. It is a little higher. We are now going to
14look in section at the same thing, so first one needs to
15flip it up.
16 Now we are looking in section. The first
17section, we see here the slide, the staircase, side
18entrance going down into the little vestibule. We see
19here the elevator shaft. Then here we see, and we will
20get much better ones in a moment, the section through
21morgue No. 1. What is important is that the section is
22exactly at the point where the connectors are between the
23ventilating systems which are on the left and the right of
24the thing, so it is not so that there is a hollow space
25all above, or all below, above the ceiling or above the
26floor. It is only at two points that that actually
1occurs, to connect those systems. We will come back to
3 MR IRVING: The next one is even better, in fact, Professor.
4While we have that picture up, could you estimate the
5thickness of that concrete roof slab?
6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] This roof slab?
7 Q. [Mr Irving] The reinforced concrete roof slab over mortuary No. 1?
8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] We have actually the one which is here.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] This is the actual reinforced concrete?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] This is the reinforced concrete. It is actually
11indicated. The problem is it is written right here and it
12is almost impossible to read.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] About 12 inches, do you think?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No. This says 38 centimetres right here. 038. This is
1538 centimetres. So we are talking here about probably 20
17 Q. [Mr Irving] 20 centimetres?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] This is 20 centimetres thick roof.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Steel reinforced concrete?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Steel reinforced concrete, yes. So this whole thing is 2
21metre 5, so this is clearly around 20 centimetres. It is
22a pity I cannot read this right here.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that the double door?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] This is 50 centimetres wide there, so probably even less
25than 20 centimetres, probably more.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that the double door that your hand was over?
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