Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 205

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    My Lord, can I ask occasional questions while we
 1have him on a particular picture?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Try not to interrupt the flow otherwise
 3we will get lost, but, yes, I think that is not
 4unreasonable. It is cross-examination.
 5 MR IRVING:     If we could just go back to the previous picture?
 6Can you go back? What kind of door would have been on
 7that entrance?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     We do not know because there is one -- the door is not
 9there and the entrance is available in two blueprints
10called "Zeichaufnahme" which means a picture, a
11description, of the actual situation, but these two
12blueprints do not show actually what kind of door.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it could have been an air raid shelter door?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I do not know.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     So we are now in this underground space, what became the
17undressing room, as the Defence maintains. Now we go
18outside -- sorry, I will just go back. We go -- actually
19behind the columns there is an exit door and comes out in
20the little vestibule, and originally where I stand was the
21original entrance into this vestibule from above. That is
22the first staircase when we went down, and we see here the
23chimney going up, the entluftung chimney, taking the foul
24air out, and we see here a kind of computer model, this
25computer model, we see here basically the pipe coming off
26the undressing room going into that chimney, and we see

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 1the second, we see a second pipe -- actually, I do not
 2know why it is red right now, but in some way the
 3ventilation system of the gas chamber would also have
 4connected to this. We see here an elevator. Again I have
 5to tell you they took kind took 1990's language for it,
 6and then here the entrance into the morgue No. 1.
 7     Now, at that point again we have something of a
 8difficulty, and the difficulty is that you see that there
 9is one panel of the door is open, but the second one
10actually is closed. It is fixed. The blueprint shows,
11the last blueprint we have shows basically the double
12panelled door opening. But there is at a certain moment
13an order for this particular door, and from that order it
14is clear that only one of the panels moves and that the
15second thing was actually either closed by masonry or by
16the fixed panel. We can interpret that later, but in some
17way again I just want to point out at the moment what is
18in the blueprints, what is in inferred out of other
19documents and what, ultimately, is on the basis of
20eyewitness testimony.
21     So this particular reconstruction is made on the
22basis of a combination of the blueprint and a particular
23order for this gastur, as it is called, of one metre by
24100 -- one metre by almost two metres high, 192
25centimetres high.
26     We are now in the gas chamber or in morgue

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 1No. 1. We have just walked in and this was the space one
 2would have seen. There are, basically, the entluftung
 3system, the foul air is being taken out at the bottom
 4connected to that chimney, and we have here the fresh air
 5being brought in from the top.
 6     Now, I will show you the blueprints in a moment
 7because this only is to aid interpreting the blueprints.
 8And then added in this particular thing which is not in
 9the blueprints are three of the four Zyklon-B insertion
11     Now, so there is none at first column, at third
12column, right there in the fifth column, they are
13alternating on the left and the right side.
14     I just want to go back for a moment. The
15sub-division of this room in two rooms which happened
16later in 1943 would have occurred on this line here, on
17the fourth column, halfway. Again, there is no blueprint
18for that. Then we go back into this elevator space and we
19see here the elevator, there were actually doors brought
20in. There were no doors and we see here this platform
21going up.
22 MR IRVING:     It is a bit like a builder's hoist, is that
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. That is what they actually used because they were
25not able to get the right elevator. Then this would have
26been the incineration room, of which we actually also have

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 1photos. These are the incinerators, these triple muffle
 2incinerators. At the back is the coke supply. This is
 3also the fire grate and this is where the ashes are taken
 4out. So at a certain moment there is a description in
 5Tauber. What happens is that he has put in here, but what
 6he says is that actually they start to fire, not that they
 7put a fire in the ash muffle. So he is not actually being
 8burned directly, and so, if you read his description, this
 9is the ash kind of muffle.
10     One drawing which is important is this. Could
11you see from the inside of the incineration room, the roof
12of the morgue No. 1? We have introduced on here, I think
13a little high, I must admit, these alleged insertion
14points, but certainly, because Tauber says that he is
15inside the incineration room, and I asked my student to
16actually step back a few steps from the window, so he does
17not stand right at the window but, if he was standing back
18at say a metre and a half into the space, look through the
19window, would he have been able to see anything? He
20actually describes the situation and this is what he could
21have seen at those points.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is another witness who describes
23looking out from the incineration room, is there not?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I think that only Tauber does that.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought there was another one.
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     There is another one who sees it from the outside.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Maybe I am confused.
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This is the question. It is, from the inside of the
 3incineration room, what do you see? We go now back to the
 4diagrams and I am going to turn the diagrams around in
 5four basic exposures, every 90 degrees we turn around,
 6first without the heating duct and then with the heating
 8     So again, we have here the incineration room,
 9the flues going to the chimney. We have here the
10entluftung, which is all green, going from the bottom of
11the gas chamber or morgue No. 1, and we have here the one
12system, only one pipe attached to the ceiling of morgue
13No. 2, all connected to this one chimney. It is clearly
14indicated in the blueprints except this one which was
15constructed later. We have here the chimney house, so to
16speak. We have here the Beiluftung going from the second
17little chimney going in. Then we have here the staircase
18with that slide in between, just indicated again rather
19vaguely. We tried to create a wall transparent so that
20you can get some sense of what is happening there.
21     Then I am going to show the same thing. I am
22going slowly to rotate it every ten seconds or so. One
23can look at from a different perspective. Now we are
24looking at it from the west almost, and one can see very
25clearly again the size of the undressing room.
26     If I am going too fast, please tell me because

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