Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 201 - 205 of 205

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    It may be that he has seen it before, in
 1which case, no problem, but otherwise, I think there has
 2to be a limit on what one can introduce. I have not
 3actually got the German, so maybe I am doing it less than
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I think we have the original German.
 6 MR IRVING:     If the court is to establish a direct between
 7Himmler and the killings of Jews somewhere.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     No, that is not why I want to use the document at
 9all. I want to use the document because it demonstrates
10what was happening to Jews at Auschwitz. That is of
11direct relevance to the cross-examination.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Given what you tell me about where it comes
13from, I think one needs to establish that it is on the
14face of it to be taken to be an authentic document.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving has had it since yesterday. If he tells
16me he disputes its authenticity, then I ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you saying that, Mr Irving?
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I do not know how long it takes the
19Defence experts to look at a document and establish its
20context and find out where it came from, and its pedigree
21and hybrid. In this particular case, given the importance
22of the document, I would have no objection at all to it
23being introduced in three or four weeks time after I have
24had time to chew it over. To have it sprung on me and to
25be sand bagged like this with a document of this
26importance -- unless they are going to rest their entire

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 1case on this kind of tactic, I think it is very dubious
 2and I think this is a very proper case for your Lordship
 3to say, well, disregarding merits or otherwise of this
 4document, this is not the way to do this; Mr Irving is
 5appearing here in person. He does not have the
 6resources. He does not have anonymous people ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it has anything to do with
 8resources. I have some sympathy with the fact you really
 9have not had very much time to consider this.
10 MR IRVING:     That is the main point.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am wondering, Mr Rampton, because
12obviously we are near the end of Professor van Pelt, do
13you actually have to put this document in through him?
14 MR RAMPTON:     No, I do not. I will use it cross-examination
15when I get back to Mr Irving. I have already told him
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then I think I would prefer you did that.
18I think there is some force in what Mr Irving says.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Our side takes absolutely no blame for this. We
20have been, as your Lordship may imagine with a case of
21this high profile, showered with material from all
22quarters of the world. This came yesterday, no, I am
23wrong, Wednesday evening out of the blue.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. In a case of this kind, as you say,
25that is bound to happen, but I do not think it means that
26anything can come in, you know, without any real

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 1examination or opportunity for Mr Irving to examine.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No. If Mr Irving wants more time to think about
 3it, that is fine. Meanwhile I am not going to say
 4anything about the person we got this from, but what its
 5original source is, which archive it was in.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It has obviously comes from something, as you
 7can see from document 6.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I am told that is a collection of documents
 9I think in Walsall.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There we are, Mr Irving. So far, as it were,
11I am with you. I am certainly going to give you time to
12think about it.
13 MR IRVING:     Thank you, my Lord.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I have finished my re-examination, my Lord. It is
1525 to 4.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have no questions myself, Professor van
17Pelt. You thank you very much indeed.
18 MR RAMPTON:     If it is necessary to release him, my Lord, could
19he be released?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Are you released. I am sure it will
21not happen, but if it were to happen we will let you know
22if we would like you to come back. I have no reason to
23suppose that is going to happen.
24     I was going to possible ask Professor van Pelt
25about this, but I think it may be better done another
26way. Would it be possible for either of you, but I think

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 1the Defendants really are in a better position to, to just
 2give me on perhaps a single piece of paper a description
 3of how Auschwitz divides up between Auschwitz 1 and
 4Auschwitz 2, Birkenhau? I do not really have the basic
 5geography in my mind. I have looked at Professor van
 6Pelt's helpful report. It does not really tackle that,
 7because perhaps because it is so elementary. So would you
 8mind producing a document?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     He is the expert. I could do a diagram now but it
10would be wrong. Before he goes, I do not know if he is
11going until the weekend or beyond.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why I think it is better not to do it
13in evidence.
14 MR RAMPTON:     No. Let him produce a plan and we can agree it
15and use it.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let Mr Irving see it obviously.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Of course. I will give him a copy.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is all basic stuff.
19 MR IRVING:     It should very much be an agreed plan.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, ideally.
21 MR RAMPTON:     There is one in Leuchter but it is so hopeless
22that I think we ought not to use it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. Well, I do not think there is any
24sense at all in recommencing your cross-examination. So
25we will adjourn now. Is there anything else that needs to
26be dealt with at this stage?

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think there is.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Monday we are having Professor McDonald.
 3 MR IRVING:     Professor McDonald, my Lord.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Straight off at 10.30?
 5 MR IRVING:     Straight off at 10.30.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is agreed between you both?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, that fine.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     After that cross-examination resumes.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     If cross-examination is to continue, I will say it
10now so that Mr Irving can think about, I am going to go to
11the meeting between Hitler and Admiral Hurty at Klessheim
12in April 1943. I am then probably going to go Dresden.
13Then I am going to go back to Reichskrissallnacht. That
14is as far as I have got in my planning at the moment.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good. 10.30 on Monday then.
16 < (The witness withdrew)
17(The Court adjourned until Monday, 31st January 2000).

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