Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 196 - 200 of 205

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the hinges.
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I see the hinges.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see the hinges. Does the shape of the hinges tell you
 4anything about the direction in which the door will open?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The door opens outwards.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you say that from the hinges?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Because the hinges seem to come forward, the hinges on the
 8right side seem to come forward which means that ----
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I must say I cannot really see that.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Can I draw it?
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I know what you are saying, but I just do not see it on
12the photograph.
13 MR IRVING:     It depends which side the hinges are, surely..
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It is very clearly on the top, on the top hinge. There
15are two hinges, and the top hinge.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot see the top hinge.
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It is right where the roof line is. The roof line. We
18are looking at document 11? You can see it. It is
19confirmed, it is confirmed by the next photo.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I think, my Lord, your problem is you have not got
21a good photograph.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have I not the same as everybody else?
23 MR RAMPTON:     No, I have a much better one and so has the
24witness. Let the Judge see the original.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I borrow?
26 MR IRVING:     My Lord, that door could be mounted either way. It

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 1entirely depends whether it is mounted inside or outside.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Professor, taking that, if you like, with
 4Mr Tauber's description, but, if you like, leave Mr Tauber
 5out, to what side of the door does it seem to you that we
 6are looking in this photograph on the left-hand side of
 7the page?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The photograph on the left hand is the outside of the
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So if one were looking through the peephole,
11as it were from where the photographer is, you would see
12inside the gas chamber?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That is the -- the peephole is there where people on the
14outside of the door would have stood.
15 MR RAMPTON:     And your view would be somewhat, but not much, of
16that focal length obstructed by this grille?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Which is shown in the next picture, where the grille is.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It is in the next picture, not very clear, but it
19is. That is quite right. If Leichenkeller 1 in
20crematoria (ii) and (iii) had been intended for use as
21disinfestation rooms, do you see any reason why Dejaco
22should have changed the way in which the doors opened from
23inwards to outwards?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You spoke of the gas type shutters at bunkers 1 and 2, and
26this is in connection with what you were saying about K4

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 1and K5, and you mentioned Dragon's testimony. If you have
 2that little bigger file, not very big file, K2, could you
 3turn to tab 3 and look at one of David Olaire's drawings?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     From No. 3?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, probably. You know them better than I.
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Drawing No. 3, which is said to be a drawing from memory
 8done in 1945 of bunker 2 which has the macabre sign over
 9the door "Disinfektion", and do you see a window he has
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you take that block on the window to be?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This is one of these gas type shutters.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does it correspond in size and appearance to what we can
15see if we go to Auschwitz now, those wooden gas type
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The wooden gas type shutters which are in the ----
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There are photographs in Pressac we need not look at?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     --- in crematorium (i).
20 MR IRVING:     My Lord, once again we are now introducing fresh
21pictures, fresh evidence. Had this been introduced
22originally, I would have brought photographs showing
23exactly the same gas type shutters with an entirely
24harmless use.
25 MR RAMPTON:     This drawing has been in Professor van Pelt's
26report since the very beginning of this case, ever since

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 1he did it.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but not perhaps specifically pointing
 3out that window as being ----
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Oh, it is, is it? Good.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     There is a whole section on Olaire's drawings and
 7this window, this particular drawing of this window. In
 8fact, there is another one on the next page, outside K5,
 9right at the end of the building behind the shoulder of
10the SS person in the end of the building. (To the
11witness): Is that right, Professor?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. That one -- that is the reason I included that
13drawing inside the expert report.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I understand that. You remember I asked you to look, this
15morning, at the document which spoke of keeping a plan
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There should have been attached to that another three
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I have this.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, dated 16th December 1942; it is a report from
22somebody called Heinrich Kinner who is an SS
23Untersturmfuhrer. My Lord, before I turn to this
24document, I will explain the reason I introduce you to the
25re-examination. The whole of Mr Irving's thesis may or
26may not be a relevant thesis, but the whole thesis is that

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 1there were no systematic homicidal gassings or killings,
 2for that matter, at Auschwitz. If this be a genuine
 3document, it is of direct relevance to everything he has
 4put to the Professor in cross-examination.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     You will see a translation.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not read it, Mr Rampton, so I cannot
 8tell you about that, but that is the way it is put.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     You will see a translation on the next two pages,
10Professor. Can we use the translation?
11 MR IRVING:     Before using translations, can I just once again
12object to the introduction of material like this which was
13supplied to me at 1 p.m. yesterday afternoon? It is now
14used in re-examination. This is not the way to deduce
15documents like this.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where did it come from?
17 MR RAMPTON:     I cannot tell, your Lordship, the source; the
18source wishes to remain anonymous for personal reasons.
19However, it is not a document that I have ever seen
20before nor anyone on my side. It even surprised my
21scholars. I do not know whether Professor van Pelt
22has seen it, because I have not been talking to him.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think you will have to lay the
24foundation, given that you tell me the provenance of it.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Well, as an anonymous provenance.

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