Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 195 of 205

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    Yes. Can we now just have a look, really so as to
 1want to use your own Pressac, Professor, please do.
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Which page?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is the trouble. I am sorry, my Lord. They are in
 4K. They are very bad copies. So if your Lordship would
 5like, I will lend you my much better copy. Have you got
 6your own Pressac?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I have Pressac if you give me the page number.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at your own Pressac. It is page 486. Tab 6, my
 9Lord. Page 8 stamped.
11 MR RAMPTON:     K2, tab 6. I think it is K1.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I do not think it is K2.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not. It is K2. It is a fold out sheet,
14my Lord. 8 stamped in the right-hand corner.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have it. Thank you.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Some questions, just a very few, about these
17photographs, Professor. Do you know when and by whom they
18were taken?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     They were taken by, I think, the Dawidowski Commission,
20the Jan Sehn and Dawidowski.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As you told the court, the 30 by 40 centimetre gas type
22shutters, some of them have been preserved, have they not?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     These not, however, is that right?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     They are not. I have looked for them. I have never seen
26them. Nobody ever could tell me where they were.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the photograph on the right, headed "Document 13", we
 2see the metal grille over the spy hole, do we not?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This came from where, do we know?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Well, I think it says Dawidowski and in this sense
 6this says Warsaw Central Commission archives.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, what I really meant was is the contention
 8this is Leichenkeller 1 in crematorium (ii)?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, these are thought to be the gas type doors
10referred to in the correspondence -- what is it gasturm 8
11millimetre ----
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, gastur.
13 MR IRVING:     With respect, I think his Lordship is asking do
14they come from Auschwitz or Birkenhau.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was asking, yes, I suppose, in effect, it
16come to that. I mean, this is Leichenkeller 1 in
17crematoria (ii), you say?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The thing is these doors -- it is the problem is we do not
19have measurements of the doors in the photos. What we
20know is that when the Leichenkeller 1 gas chamber was
21taken apart in late 1945, materials were stored at the
22Bauhoff. The Bauhoff was, basically, a large yard where
23they kept building materials and also things of buildings
24they had used and thought of reusing in the future again,
25or where they thought of shipping somewhere else. So
26these doors were found at the Bauhoff. There was no label

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 1attached to the doors and there was also no measurement in
 2here. So the original door is 100 centimetres wide and
 3192 centimetres high. So, unlike the gas type shutters
 4which are still available for inspection, and which,
 5indeed, are 30 by 40 centimetres, you know, it is
 6possible, it is likely, probable, but cannot be absolutely
 7certain about it, no.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where has the physical door gone?
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The physical door?
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The door of which one is looking at the photograph?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I do not know. I have asked people.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It has disappeared?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I see. Anyway, you say it is probably ----
15 MR RAMPTON:     I was going just ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- Leichenkeller 1.
17 MR RAMPTON:     --- to build that up a little bit further because
18there is a letter -- can you remind of the date when
19Bischoff is writing to the internal manufacturer, or the
20Auschwitz manufacturer, that he wants a gas type door
21exactly the same as the one -- do you know the one I mean?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I know the letter. I just -----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have it, it is page 44.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I am most grateful.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 4.
26 MR RAMPTON:     It is tab?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 4.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 4, Professor.
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I am here.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On 31st March 1943, Bischoff writes to the manufacturer
 5and he says in the second paragraph that he wants a gas
 6door 100 by 192 centimetres for Leichenkeller 1 at
 7crematorium (iii) BW30A, the same design, and what is
 8"mass", size ----
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     "Size", yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- as the keller door of the opposite crematorium (ii)
11with a spy hole from double 8 millimetre glass with a
12sealing, a gasket -- "gummidichtunng" be rubber sealing?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A rubber sealing. What is a beschlag?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That would be some kind of metal edge or ring. It is
16mostly metal work which you apply to something else. In
17this case to wood.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it follows, does it not, as night follows from day,
19that both Leichenkellers in crematoria (ii) and (iii) had
20a gas type door of this description?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The description in the letter?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We know also, do we not, that Tauber described just such a
25door in his testimony?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does this picture correspond with the description in this
 2letter and the description given by Tauber?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It does correspond with it. I would like to make one
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It is of course always possible that these were doors for
 7crematoria 4 and 5, because we do not have the final
 8measurements, but I presume that they would have been
 9designed in the same way.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at the picture on the left, document 11, yes,
11that is necessarily -- sorry, I will not say. That has
12not got the metal grill on the spy hole, has it?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It does not because we are looking at the outside.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please let me take it in stages.
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does not have the metal grill?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It does not have the metal grill.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does have, I do not know what you call the thing, it is
19a sort of a bolt?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And probably the bolt, although it is impossible to tell
22from the picture precisely, goes in that direction, so
23that one can imagine that it is going to do that?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Fit into a slot or arm?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.

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