Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 205

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, that is right.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am only just really putting down a marker
 3at the moment, but the inference does not need to be spelt
 4out because I think it is obvious.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No, I do not think the inference does need to be
 6spelled out. I would much rather not spell it out.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you have heard what I have said.
 8That is how I am dealing with this.
 9 MR IRVING:     As long as your Lordship does not feel I am being
10tedious with these interruptions.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I do not want to stop you. If you feel
12something is going on that you do not like, say so and if
13I do not agree, I will say so.
14 MR RAMPTON:     All right. (To the witness): Gas pillars, gas
15introduction, pellet introduction pillars, Professor? Can
16you take up that file K2 again? This time I want to look
17at some documents we have looked at before but in a
18slightly different way.
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Which is K2?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     K2 is the second Auschwitz bundle.
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You should have it.
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I have.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would like you to turn, first of all, please, to tab 3,
25which are David Olaire's drawings, and to the first page
26in that tab. I think you told us that Mr Olaire probably

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 1did this drawing in 1945 or 46. I cannot remember which?
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It is dated 1945.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where do I find that? It is. It is in the bottom
 4right-hand corner in manuscript, is it not?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     D. Olaire, 45. Yes, I have it. Where did he make this
 7drawing, do you know?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Back in Paris.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In Paris. Do you know the circumstances in which he made
10these drawings?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, I do not know.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then can we, please, turn back a tab, to tab 2, and page 5
13in that tab -- no, first of all, take out, will you, the
14aerial photographs? That is the best way of doing it.
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     All of them?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, just the one at page 5. Page 5 in handwriting.
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the clearest possibly although, funnily enough, it
19is not the largest. Can you go back to the Olaire drawing
20on page 1 of tab 3, please?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I want you to look at in a moment at the aerial
23photograph. Which crematorium is this that Olaire has
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Crematorium No. (iii).
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How do we know that?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     He was working in No. (iii).
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right.
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     And that also the plan itself is of No. (iii) because it
 4is now reversed from crematorium No. (ii).
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We see that at No. 10 in his key are the Zyklon-B
 6introduction vents?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at the drawing, you see them, the dotted lines
 9run from the figure 10 to squares on the ground plan?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you notice the alignment of those squares?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I do.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will you please look at the aerial photograph?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I do.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     K3 is on the right-hand side of the photograph, is it not?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. There is a lettering right next to it almost, 160.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, that is right. How does the alignment of that
18photograph, those black dots, match what Olaire has drawn?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It seems identical.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know of any reason to think that David Olaire was
21shown this photograph before he made that drawing?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This was not available until 1979.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where was it until 1979 -- in Moscow?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, no. This is the American, this is the American.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is American bombing ----
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It is American bombing photo.

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- photos. I had not written that down.
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     So, yes, all declassified.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The summer of '44?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     In the summer of '44, yes.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Now I want to ask you one or two questions,
 6Professor, which I fear you may find rather foolish, but
 7I am going to ask them just the same, if you do not mind?
 8You will remember a time at which Mr Irving has proposed
 9-- I cannot remember quite when it was, perhaps several
10times -- that the absence of holes in the present ruins of
11Leichenkeller 1 at crematorium (ii) means that it can
12never have been meant for gassing live human beings.
13     He suggests as an alternative that it had a dual
14purpose as a room for delousing corpses or, alternatively,
15other sorts of objects. First of all, can you give us
16your opinion, if there were no holes in the roof, how do
17you think that the SS -- sorry, the sonderkommando would
18have been able to put the pellets into the room?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there not a question before then, if you
20do not mind my saying so?
21 MR RAMPTON:     You ask it, my Lord, please.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you think there was any other way in which
23the Zyklon-B might have been inserted into the gas chamber
24into the morgue?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     One could have used the same way. There are two ways
26apart from these columns. I mean, there are obviously no

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 1windows, so the way it was done in crematoria (iv) and (v)
 2it would not have worked.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What I was really asking is do you think it, in fact,
 4happened in any other way? That was the question that I
 5thought, perhaps, needed to be asked first.
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Sorry, my Lord. A way, when you delouse a building or
 7even in a delousing room, sometimes you could just put the
 8palettes right on the floor. So that is a possibility.
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Sorry, Mr Rampton I thought I might have got a different
10answer to that question.
11 MR RAMPTON:     No. Are there any contemporaneous documents (and
12it is a harmless procedure to disinfest corpses or
13clothes, there is nothing sinister about it) referring to
14such a procedure as this, the gassing of corpses?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I have never seen or heard of a document like that.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are there any eyewitness accounts from either side or any
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No. There are no eyewitness accounts.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you think of a reason why you would need to have,
20leaving aside the air raid question, we will come back to
21that, a double 8 millimetre thick glass spy hole to
22observe the gassing of corpses or clothes?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I cannot think of any reason.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you think of any reason why that door with the
25luckloch should have a metal grille on the inside of it?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No. I cannot think of any reason.

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