Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 176 - 180 of 205

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    Do you remember questions about where the
 1there. Is that a fair summary of the evidence?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     There is a very direct and relevant point to be
 3made at the end of this little exercise, if Mr Irving will
 4be patient. Do you see that photograph, Professor?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I see.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just tell me, I will make a suggestion and answer then
 7I will ask for information. Am I looking northwards?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No. You are looking towards the West.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is my mistake. I see two chimneys. One is on the
10right of the picture. There are two large chimneys, one
11on the right and one on the left.
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The chimneys of crematorium (ii) to the left and (iii) to
13the left.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is on the left of the picture, therefore, to the
15south, a hut or building. Do you see that?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And there is a line of what looks like concrete posts
18probably with wire on them. Is that right?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is behind that wire?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Behind that wire is the women's camp, what is the called
22women's camp in 1944.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We see the people; they look as though they perhaps have
24just got out of the train. That is for reference because
25I now want you to look at, please, just for in passing, at
26page 22.

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Should I keep this one out?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I think probably it is a good idea to keep it out.
 3That is what I shall do; it makes it easier to know what
 4one is looking at.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     22.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     22, my Lord, yes. This is just in passing. There
 7we are looking -- have you got 22?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There we are looking in the opposite direction towards the
10entrance to the camp, are we not?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     We look eastwards, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So from what you have just said, the women's camp is on
13the right of this picture?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is what we see there what you have described as selection
16into male and female?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This is the moment just before the selection. It seems
18that the people who are still ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Division, I mean.
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, the division between on the one side, men and older
21boys, and on the other side, women and children, has
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Then, if you please, the last photograph I need you
24to look at, I am afraid you look in a different place now,
25you look in the bottom left-hand corner for a very small
26printed italic 32?

.   P-177

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Further on.
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I see.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     It is further on, my Lord. Yes, it is about -- 15
 4pages maybe. That is the one. Now, Professor -- has your
 5Lordship got it?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Do you see the building, long low building behind
 8the people in the half background?
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I see.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that the same houses we were looking at earlier?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That is the block for the women's camp.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you see to the left there is a lorry?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A truck. Behind the truck is what appears to be a gate?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And is the gate shut?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The gate is shut, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The people in the line appear to be women and children, do
19they not?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     They are women and children, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the right of the picture, apart one or two SS men in
22uniform, there is what looks like a uniform figure on the
23far right of the picture, but ignoring him, the women and
24children on the right of the picture are moving in what
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     They walk along the railway track to the West.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What lies at the end of the railway track to the West?
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Crematorium (ii) and crematorium (iii).
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is there any access to the women and children's camp from
 4this point onwards between ----
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- here and crematorium (ii)?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     There is no access.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is there any access from that point to the sauna building
 9north, or whatever it is, west of Canada?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     At the moment there is, but not at that time.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what I mean. I meant here in May 1944?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes -- no there was a gate, but the usual way to go to the
13central sauna was actually to take the lagerstrasse which
14is through the middle of the camp and then go up past
15crematorium (iv) and (v).
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which means going in the opposite direction?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Going in the opposite direction.
18 MR IRVING:     At the risk of testing your Lordship's patience
19once again, this material was not in the expert report.
20It was not dealt with in cross-examination, and I really
21have to be lectured on how it can be introduced at this
22late stage.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I am with you to the extent that it
24does not really seem to go quite to the selection process;
25more to what was going to happen after the selection
26process had taken place.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Precisely. One is being invited to draw a lot of
 2inferences from pictures which one would like to have had
 3spelt out explicitly either in the report or in
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Why do we not get Professor van Pelt to spell out
 6the inference which do I do not really think needs doing.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what Mr Irving is objecting to.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am quite willing, while he is still here, if
 9Mr Irving then wants to ask a question about it for him to
10do so.
11 MR IRVING:     This is not the way this thing should be done
13 MR RAMPTON:     I do not agree with that, as a matter of fact.
14Professor van Pelt was cross-examined about selection. He
15explained what it was for and he explained what had
16happened to the people that were not selected to go into
17the camp to work. That being so, this is directly
18relevant. It has been in this file, in these bundles,
19ever since they were first composed.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I mean, having said that, I mean, the
21evidence is in now, I am sitting alone, so in a sense
22there is not so much harm, but I think one has to be a bit
23cautious when one has so much expert evidence about
24introducing what one might, I think, fairly describe as
25fresh points. This is evidence buttressing an existing
26point but it is ----

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