Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 205

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    I tried to explain why I think it is
 1that point to Professor van Pelt, but we be would here to
 2Christmas and beyond if we did that. So we are not
 3requiring you to put all those points. But it does not
 4mean Mr Rampton cannot get evidence from this witness,
 5especially if it is in his report, which bears on the
 6point that you are going to take, although you have not
 7cross-examined to it.
 8 MR IRVING:     My understanding was re-examination is only
 9permitted on matters that I cross-examined on.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In a normal case that is true. I am not
11bending the rules in Mr Rampton's favour. I am in fact
12bending them in your favour, because I have not required
13you to cross-examine on this point, do you follow me?
14 MR IRVING:     Very well.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Normally in the old days, and I thank goodness we
16are not in the old days any more, if the point had not
17been taken in cross-examination, I would have to say to
18the Judge: Well, I am afraid it cannot be taken in
19closing.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I mean by taking short cuts in
21this case.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I do not say that.
23     Does that evidence of General Pohl reflect upon
24the death books figures so-called that have emerged from
25Moscow?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No. It suggests, I mean Pohl only talks about of course

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 1information being transmitted to Berlin, but certainly the
 2question is how would information be gathered in
 3Auschwitz, and then of course we get other corroborating
 4information like, for example, that of Pery Broad who
 5worked in the political department who said that there was
 6no registration of people who were not admitted to the
 7camp. That is information that once the transport had
 8arrived, and once basically the people had been sent to
 9the gas chamber, all records, all traces of these people
10also in the records were removed, or at least, you know,
11there was maybe some record about a number of people that
12had arrived but they were not registered.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does it also reflect, tell me if it does not, on the
14so-called Hinsley decrypt question?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     In the way it has been posed by Mr Irving, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. To put it another way, would you expect to find
17references to the extermination of unregistered prisoners
18in decrypts going from Auschwitz to Berlin?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the same point, is it not? The Hinsley
21decrypt point is the same point about non-registration of
22those who were going allegedly to be exterminated.
23 MR RAMPTON:     You told us some time ago, Professor, last week,
24that upon arrival to begin with the transports were
25divided up for selection at the old Judenamter which was
26between the two camps?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But that by the time of the Hungarian action in 1944, the
 3Summer of 1944, they had built one spare right up through
 4Birkenhau towards the two crematoria 2 and 3?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. The spare had been in construction for a longer
 6time, but it was completed in I think March, March 1944.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Late March, maybe early April.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you take that file H2 (vi) again, please?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     H2(vi), where is that?
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In tab 4 we find something called the "Auschwitz Album".
12That is not its official title in any sense. Can you say
13briefly what this Auschwitz album actually is? I will ask
14you about the photographs in a moment, but if you could
15tell us what the book is?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This is a book which was found on the evacuation of the
17camp by a person called Lily Meyer as the camp was being
18evacuated. It is a picture book made either for an
19individual SS man or maybe for the Auschwitz SS, recording
20a couple of arrivals and subsequent kind of delousing
21registration into the camp, and also the fate of other
22people, at least until any come to the crematorium, of
23Hungarian Jews.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. So the photographs which we find inside are,
25therefore, of what date?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     They are of the Summer 1944.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By whom were they taken?
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     They were taken by an SS man.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How do you know they are the Summer of 1944?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Because that is when the Hungarian action occurred.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is circular, is it not?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     But the book itself identifies this. It identifies the
 7action as a Hungarian action.
 8 MR IRVING:     That was surely May 1944.
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     May 1944, whatever, yes.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it may not matter.
11 MR RAMPTON:     It does not sound as though it is controversial.
12It is in fact quite a well-known book. These photographs
13have been known about for a very long time?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, apart from -- there are three basically sources of
15photographs, at least from Birkenhau, which is the
16Bauleitung photographs we saw today a few of, showing the
17construction, showing the construction of the buildings in
18Birkenhau. Then we have a number of photos, a small
19number of photos which would have been made illegally by
20prisoners, probably a sonderkommando who found a camera in
21what was left over in the undressing room. These are very
22shaky photographs where you see people running and you see
23some burning of bodies in a kind open pit. Then this one
24which is a large collection made by the SS, one does not
25really know for what reason, except ----
26 MR IRVING:     Where is the second collection from, is it Moscow?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The second collection.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     There are three or four photographs. I think they are the
 4original negatives. No, there are no negatives. Original
 5prints on Auschwitz.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     The particular pages that I want to refer to are a
 7little bit difficult to find, because the bundle has not
 8been paginated, but at the bottom of each photograph there
 9is usually a printed number.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you turn the file sideways, I hope you can find a
12photograph which has a printed number 15 at the bottom?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     15?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     15.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, 15.
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am again nervous about this introduction
18of fresh evidence of the re-examination phase.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, this does arise of out
20cross-examination.
21 MR RAMPTON:     This arises directly out of questions about
22selection.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you remember questions about where the
24selection process took place and how it changed from being
25on the railway platform, I think it was originally, and
26then they built the spare and it was sometimes done

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