Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 205

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    I do not know what or not, what commercial or not
 1consideration or not may have brought Mr Muller to write
 2at that moment. He gave testimony in 1946 which was
 3included in the Kraus and Kulgar book, but it cannot be
 4identified in that book as being Philip Muller's. So it
 5is very difficult to exactly say what is Philip Muller's
 6in that book, but he already did it, and, you know, in the
 71960s, I do not know. Maybe there were commercial
 8reasons, maybe not; maybe he wanted really to testify and
 9bear witness to what happened in the crematoria.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you do accept, do you not, that if you were to go to
11Auschwitz the day after tomorrow with a trowel and clean
12away the gravel and find a reinforced concrete hole where
13we anticipate it would be from your drawings, this would
14make an open and shut case and I would happily abandon my
15action immediately?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I think I cannot comment on this. I am an expert on
17Auschwitz and not on the way you want to run your case.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is my offer. I would say that that would drive such
19a hole through my case that I would have no possible
20chance of defending it any further.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not really a question, is it?
22 MR IRVING:     Well, I am asking, the point I am making, my Lord,
23is that he has been to Auschwitz once a year for a number
24of years. The temptation must have occurred to him to go
25there with a trowel and scrape away the gravel and look
26for the hole, not just one but three of them, and he

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 1assures us that they were built in holes, not just casual
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think if he had been digging around with a
 4trowel he would have got into trouble with the
 5authorities, would he not?
 6 MR IRVING:     It has been done by others, my Lord, I understand.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, with their permission. I do not think
 8that is really a question in a way. You have made the
 9point and I understand it, that nobody has actually done
10the excavation work or whatever you like to call it.
11 MR IRVING:     This is, obviously, not the time to make
12submissions, so I will not, my Lord, and with that I will
13end my cross-examination of this witness with my many
14thanks. I wish you a pleasant flight home.
15 < Re-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My Lord and Professor van Pelt, page 182 of your report
17contains, as you have noticed, a lengthy extract from
18Tauber's evidence as reported in Pressac, is that not
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It goes over on to 183. You notice -- this is on the
22question of whether you had to crouch to get into or
23whether Tauber ever said that you had to crouch to get
24into the gas chamber -- almost at the beginning of the
25last quarter of the page is a sentence which in your
26report starts at the end of the line "At about", do you

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 1see that? There is a line which says: "The door and the
 2rabbets of the frame were also fitted with ceiling strips
 3of felt"?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I see it.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then there is this sentence: "At about head height for an
 6average man this door had a round glass peephole". How
 7far from the roof or ceiling of the chamber do you
 8estimate that the peephole will have been?
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     How far from the ceiling?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have a man of average height -- that is me -- looking
11through a peephole?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That would be 5 foot 6.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How much above me is the ceiling?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     We know that the height of the building was, the height of
15the room was 8 feet. So there would be another two and a
16half feet.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much. Now, I am afraid I have some
18questions, Professor. They are naturally somewhat
19disorderly in the sense they follow the track of the
20cross-examination. That is no criticism of Mr Irving;
21that is just the way things turn out. Have you got the
22file K2, the second Auschwitz file, there?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Which -- is that the pictures?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, the pictures and the correspondence?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn to divider 4?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I am there.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To save moving around, I am going to ask you questions
 3about a couple of documents in here -- three of them, in
 4fact. At page 49 ----
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No. 9?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     49.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     49 in tab 4?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     49, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see the letter of 28th June 1943?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With Jahrling's name at the bottom in handwriting, do you
12see that?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The bottom left-hand corner? Mr Irving does not like this
15document. Professor, do you see any reason to doubt the
16authenticity of this document?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I do not see any reason to doubt the authenticity of the
18letter of 28th June 1943.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Remind me because I have forgotten, where does it come
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This one, this particular comes from Moscow.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Moscow. Thank you. Can you turn then right to the front
23of this section of the file?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And dates back to 1950, I think, does it not?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I am sorry?
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It dates back to 1950 in the sense that is when it first

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 1surfaced? That is what Mr Irving said.
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The copy which surfaced came from Dumburg, as far as I
 3know, from Dumberg, an archive in the DDR. But it was a
 4different sheet, it was not this actual, this actual
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Right at the front of the file, I have put them in
 7the front, my Lord. I do not know where your Lordship has
 8put them? Those recent documents have been produced by
 9Mr Irving and then some by us by Entwesungsanlage.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I do not have that in this file.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have a spare here.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is the problem, is it not?
13 MR RAMPTON:     I know.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have to keep track of these.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I know, it is awful. They should have gone into
16this part of the file.
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I have the Vedag here.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you need the document of 13th April 1943. You only
19need two documents.
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I have the 13th April, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does your Lordship have it? Let me pass those up. My
22Lord, I have not put mine yet in chronological order. We
23will do that in due course. Can I take, first of all, in
24reverse chronological order, the document of 20th August
251943, which is the long invoice?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.

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