Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 205

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    -- it is difficult exactly to see again, we are looking
 1here at dots, you know, this is reproduced.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have gone on to No. 8 now. You can see the dots on the
 3right one, which suggests that the definition of the
 4picture would be adequate to see dots on crematorium No. 2
 5and yet there are no such dots visible?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     There is a whole line visible.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not on crematorium No. 2?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I am sorry?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not on crematorium No. 2.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     On crematorium No. 2 there seem to be -- I do not exactly
11know if that is the line which is the edge of the gas
12chamber or a line on top, you know, if that is -- if the
13two parallel lines are the edges of the kind of earth bank
14on top of the gas chamber -- I do not know there are some
15white smudges in the middle there. I mean, his Lordship
16can see that as well, I presume.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I suggest you now move on to No. 10. No. 9, my Lord,
18is a photograph taken by the German Air Force after the
19Russians occupied Auschwitz.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. 9 or 10?
21 MR IRVING:     No. 9 is a photograph. I have included it purely
22for historical interest. It shows the buildings
23demolished or partly blown up by somebody before February
2419th 1945.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And the same is true of ten.
26 THE WITNESS:     No, 10, the buildings are still standing.

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 1 MR IRVING:     The photographs are not in sequence, my Lord.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot make anything of 10 at all.
 3 MR IRVING:     If you look, my Lord, the original is very faded,
 4but you can clearly make out the outlines of crematorium
 5No. 2. You can clearly make out the outlines going off
 6horizontally to the left of the Leichenkeller No. 1 and
 7once again there is no kind of markings whatsoever on the
 8roof, that is my submission.
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I would like to comment on that, that first of all the
10image is so bad that the whole chimney and the whole
11projection of crematorium 2 in image No. 10 has become one
12big blurry -- the building would have half been destroyed
13in this one, and that if one wants there is very little to
14see one way or another, but I actually think there are --
15at least I think that I see three dots on top of that, on
16top of that morgue, but that can also be simply some kind
17of --
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you to take five-minutes during the lunch
19adjournment to have look at the original photographs,
20which are substantially better quality, and tell me
21honestly under oath whether you still say the same,
22because my submission is that there are no dots visible on
23any of the photographs apart from that August 1944 one.
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     -- I hope you have magnifying glasses because I have now
25reached the age I need reading glasses and I do not have
26them with me. I did not expect this kind of challenge.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, a magnifying glass would be quite a
 2good idea, would it not.
 3 MR IRVING:     I will try and obtain one, my Lord, in the
 4interval. (To the witness) While, we have the bundle in
 5front of us, will you please pass to page 14, which I hope
 6will be in your bundle, Professor.
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Page 14?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it shows two photographs side by side. I would ask
 9you only to look at the photographs; disregard the text.
10The left hand photograph, would you agree, have you seen
11it before --
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- it show Hungarian prisoners arriving in May 1944 at
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any smoke visible on that photograph?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     The right hand photograph is the identical photograph
19apart for one thing.
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     There is some grey blood.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, does it appear to be smoke in the sky above some
22chimney in the background?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I do not know if it is a chimney. It is a pole. It is a
24kind of electricity pole.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but it is not on the photograph on the left which is
26the original one as published by the Behalteklasse

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 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I agree.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, do you agree that one has to have heightened alertness
 4when one is looking at photographs that have been
 5published by whoever? One has to be aware constantly that
 6people sometimes...
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, but I may point out that at least with the photos of
 8the Hungarian action in the Auschwitz album I have seen
 9the originals and inspected the originals and worked with
10the originals.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The originals show what? Smoke or no smoke?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I mean whatever the claim is being made here, I certainly,
13you know, it seems to be that the Weisenthal Centre on
14their website has prettied up this picture one way or
15another. But certainly that is not my source of
16information for whatever material.
17 MR IRVING:     Are you surprised to hear, Professor, that last
18night when I tried to go to their website this picture
19showing the smoke has been removed?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I presume they are following this trial on your website.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, will you now turn to the last page of the
22bundle of photographs?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The last page?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     The very last page.
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     24?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is right, should be a coloured diagram showing a wire

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 1mesh column.
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that this is a reasonable interpretation
 4by an artist operating for the Holocaust history project
 5of what the wire mesh introduction devices looked like, on
 6the basis of eyewitness evidence?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, I think it is wrong.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who is Mark van Elstein?
 9 MR IRVING:     He is some artist employed by the Holocaust History
10Project, which is a non-revisionist, if I can put it that
11way, website.
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I think he is wrong.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     In what degree do you think this differs from the real,
14from reality?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I think that, first of all, I think there were three
16concentric tubes, and there are only two shown here.
17I think the second one, which is really problematic is
18that he shows that the whole width of the column goes into
19the slab. There was no reason for that, actually it would
20be counterproductive because the column, the idea of the
21column was to allow for the even dispersion of hydrogen
22cyanide in the room, not into the slab. So to weaken the
23slab in that way, allowing for that disbursing mechanism
24to go into the slab is absolutely nonsense.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is the funnel point?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     

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