Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition
Pages 116 - 120 of 205
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1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That the smudges were caused by the holes. It is very
2difficult at this...
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Magnification.
4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] At this magnification to determine exactly what is
5happening there. I do not know exactly -- we know from
6the Bryant investigation that at a certain moment objects
7the size of a head would -- was the size of a grain in the
8negative and that all kind of moray (?) effects started to
9happen, so we are talking here about what is happening on
10size of a grain in the negative.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] When was this photograph taken, Professor? The one we are
12looking at, August 1944?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I do not know if this is August 1st or May 1st or it was
14even possibly a September one.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Were all the photographs with which we are familiar taken
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am sorry, I think I am a bit
19confused; is this Leichenkeller No. One.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You said a moment ago that the holes were
22still there, or two of them are.
23 MR IRVING: Two holes have been made after the war, my Lord.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oh, I see, made after the war.
25 MR IRVING: In positions indicated by the little red dots by
26whom knows whom out of curiosity to find --
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Experimentally.
2 MR IRVING: To find out what is underneath.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought you meant that we could see the
4holes that were originally there.
5 MR IRVING: We have seen the photograph of one of the holes, my
6Lord, with the metal reinforcing bars twisted up to obtain
8 THE WITNESS: But, my Lord, I do challenge the position of the
9red dots on that mark No. 3. I challenge that these
10actually, the location of the holes right now in the roof.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not quite see why it matters.
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] OK. But in any case because I think maybe there was
13confusion about that.
14 MR IRVING: Well, are you suggesting to the court that the
15holes we have seen photographs of, the one with the
16reinforcing bars twisted up is one of the holes on which
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, whether you challenge it or not is neither
20here nor there?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] OK, neither here nor there.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say if we are wrong, but it does not
23appear to me to be significant.
24 MR IRVING: No.
25 Witness, I have here a number of original
26photographs from the National Archives Cardographic
1Branch. These are original prints taken from the original
2negatives that were over Auschwitz in 1944, as you say.
3I have five of them, which show these buildings. I am not
4going to ask you now, witness, to examine them in detail,
5because clearly that would disrupt the proceedings of the
6court. But I have produced for the court's interest in
7large sections of those photographs, and they begin, my
8Lord, on page 7; 7, 8, 8 and 10, which is where my
9computer crashed, so I will not rely on the fifth
10photograph. But I would ask the witness to comment on
11these enlarged sections of the original photographs which
12he can scrutinize, I would suggest, during the lunch
13adjournment and say if he can see the slightest sign of
14dots on the roof of this building; the mortuary No. 1 in
15crematorium No. 2, "The Factory of Death", on which his
16entire case, that this was a factory of death relies.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I imagine he would probably say
19 THE WITNESS: I can say that. Picture No. 7 seems to depict
20the building after the destruction had started. I do not
21know how far it is. I think maybe it is not even an
22American but a German photo.
23 MR IRVING: No, the German photograph is picture No. 9 that
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No. 9 --
26 Q. [Mr Irving] That was taken on February 19th 1945 --
1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] So there the buildings are completely destroyed. So the
2issue of dots is irrelevant there, yes?
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] At picture No. 7, whatever the date -- there already seems
5to be in the picture No. 7, is that there is -- certainly
6there is -- I can see, but it is kind of useless for me to
7argue. I could say I see two dots on morgue No. 1 --
8 Q. [Mr Irving] But you cannot see the same four smudges in any of the
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] -- but I said I certainly see four smudges in photograph
11No. 8 behind crematorium No. 3.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you point them out to me?
13 MR IRVING: That is correct?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No. 8 I see four smudges right there.
15 MR IRVING: Four smudges on 3, but not on 2?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] But on No. 2 I do not know what -- if they had made...
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Did they --
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The smudges are on others, I do not know exactly what were
19the conditions -- it seems to be that there is a line of
21 MR RAMPTON: Yes --
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] -- a line of smudges.
23 MR IRVING: Mr Rampton has objections to make.
24 MR RAMPTON: I do not have an objection, I have an observation
25to make. It is perhaps not valuable to ask the witness
26what he can see. We can all look at them. I could give
1evidence what I can see in these photographs.
2 MR IRVING: But the court needs to hear it.
3 MR RAMPTON: I happen to agree with the Professor that one can
4see the smudges very clearly, but it is a matter for your
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that may be but since we have had a lot
7of evidence about smudges I do not see there is any harm
8in Professor van Pelt being asked what he thinks one can
10 MR RAMPTON: All I am suggesting is it makes not in the end
11any difference what this witness can see in these
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He might suddenly say; "gosh, I cannot see
14any smudges at all, I must be wrong".
15 MR RAMPTON: It would not matter if he did say that, if I can
16see them and your Lordship can see them.
17 MR IRVING: I appreciate the tactical reason for such
18interruptions but I would be grateful if you left them
19until the end of the --
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it has not succeeded.
21 MR IRVING: Professor, you suggested that the building on the
22left in picture No. 8 might have already been partially
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] -- no, No. 7 I said, this was about in No. 7 but --
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Very well.
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
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