Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 205

<< 1-5201-205 >>
    We saw in the slides that you showed to us the
 1concrete being poured, if I can put it that way, on the
 2roof of -- not this building, not the alleged mass gas
 3chamber, but the crematorium No. 2, the mortuary No. 2; is
 4that right?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, it is this building, but it is mortuary No. 2.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is the different one?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I must say that took me back 30 years when I saw concrete
 9being poured, because I know what it means. I know that
10the reinforcing wires and the bars and everything, how
11they are all put in. There were no drawings made, were
12there, of those bars? You yourself said that you could
13not produce the drawings of the actual --
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I have not seen the drawings. I do not know if drawings
15were made. Generally I do not think that actually that
16much of this, as far as I know, runs on more or less kind
17of, you know, accepted kind of procedures.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- rule of thumb, yes.
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. So that it is unlikely to find -- I have not seen
20any drawings in the Auschwitz archive of any reinforcing
21or any particular concrete construction.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     When I worked with John Laing the position of every bar
23was drawn on a drawing, but you say there are no such
24drawings and under wartime conditions presumably there
25were not.
26     We are now switching from the one we saw in the

.   P-106

 1picture, to the alleged factory of death, this gas chamber
 2here where you say 500,000 people were killed; we are back
 3on the question of roof again. We do not have pictures of
 4that roof being poured, but it would be fair to assume
 5that there would be the same kind of reinforcing that went
 6that room, steel bars?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I mean there are fragments when the whole -- the
 8pillar No. 2, there are reinforcing bars right there.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Which are bent, which have been bent.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was the thickness the shame on Leichenkeller
12No. 1?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The strange thing is we do not have any section of morgue
14No. 2, but we have the section of morgue No. 1 because it
15was such a particular, complex section. So I assume from
16the ruins it looks that whatever is there that the
17thickness was the same and I also would have assumed that.
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, can I refer to you the little bundle of
19pictures that I provided to you this morning, which is
20numbered Claimant's bundle D, photographs.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you very much, which I have not
22looked at all.
23 MR IRVING:     I am sure you have not, my Lord. This was finally
24finalized at 4 o'clock this morning. But it is going to
25be useful nonetheless I think, on the sense one picture is
26often worth a thousand words. This answers many of our

.   P-107

 2 MR RAMPTON:     Well, my Lord, I have some reservation about
 3this. I am not being technical about this. This little
 4bundle seems to be a mixture of drawings, reconstructions
 5by an unknown hand, and commentary by an unknown author.
 6It is quite different if the Professor in the witness box
 7gives a demonstration and offers his opinion. I am not
 8very impressed, I have to say.
 9 MR IRVING:     I am sorry, you have commentary.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the commentary, I was wondering
11about that.
12 MR IRVING:     On page 18 are you referring?
13 MR RAMPTON:     Well, I do not know, I thought I saw some red
14commentary, I have only glanced at it.
15 MR IRVING:     I think the red commentary, it is actually linked
16to other pages.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but there is red commentary on page something
18or other.
19 MR IRVING:     We can rip that page out.
20 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is this; there is a lot of red commentary,
21actually. Then there are some very pretty drawings like a
22child's picture book in different colours.
23 MR IRVING:     We have had some pretty drawings thrown on the
24screen this morning.
25 MR RAMPTON:     I know not by whom they were done, Mr Irving might
26perhaps be better off listening to what I have to say than

.   P-108

 1interrupting. The reason I am troubled by this is so far
 2as I know the person who made these drawings and that
 3commentary is not going to be a witness.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I hear what you say, Mr Rampton, and
 5I understand the force of it, but what I think going to
 6let Mr Irving do is make what use he wishes of these
 7photographs and if we come to a particularly problematic
 8one then maybe it is going to be right to stop it.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I follow that. I want to be sure that I am right
10though, this is not expert evidence from anybody so far as
11I know.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not an illegitimate cross-examination
13technique in the end do not I think, so take your course.
14 MR IRVING:     My Lord, thank you. The drawings, of course, that
15we were shown on the screen were made not by the expert
16witness, but by one of his students.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A slightly different situation.
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you get a rough idea of the thickness of
19the concrete from pictures No. 22 and 23 and you can see
20the reinforcing bars that go through the roof.
21     (To the witness) Would you agree that these are
22the holes that exist at present in mortuary No. 2, these
23holes were cut through the roof after the war to obtain
24access to the underside of the flap?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I cannot judge the picture of No. 22. I do think that
26No. 23 looks like what I have seen at that particular one.

.   P-109

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well, we will disregard 22, but if you stay on page
 223, picture 23, you can see that there is a hole cut
 3through the concrete into darkness underneath and you can
 4see reinforcing bars there, and the concrete there -- well
 5you said 20 centimetres thick, did you not?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I thought afterwards I thought 18 centimetres.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     In real terms 18 centimetres is?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Six inches.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Six inches?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we go back to the picture that you showed the court on
12Thursday of the locomotive and which we saw briefly on the
13screen again today, which I have reproduced for the sake
14of convenience, on page 16, my Lord, purely just as a
15visual remainder of what we are now arguing about, or
16talking about. This is the locomotive going past the
17roof which is clearly under construction still. It has
18not been banked up around. It has not had earth heaped
19over it and it has some protuberances on top. My Lord,
20I did refer, you will remember. I asked the witness if he
21had said a photograph with that same roof with snow
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I remember that.
24 MR IRVING:     Witness, will you please turn to page 17; is this a
25photograph that you recognize?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     

.   P-110

<< 1-5201-205 >>