Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition
Pages 96 - 100 of 215
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1 MR IRVING: I have started a new numbering system which will go
2all the way through with consistent consecutive numbers
3from now on.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I gathered that was being done. That is very
5helpful. We got as far, I think, as about 14 maybe.
6 MR IRVING: We started with 00, unfortunately.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am only up to 11, so something has gone
9 MR IRVING: The 0 now comes after the 11. The one I have given
10you should come after 11, my Lord.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to put it for the time being --
12actually it is 12. Yes?
13 MR IRVING (To the witness): These are three or four Germans
14documents. They are significant because they refer to
15trips made from Auschwitz to Dessau to pick up Zyklon-B,
16truck loads of Zyklon-B. Are you familiar with this kind
17of signal or radio message?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Well, I am not familiar with this particular one.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Not with this particular one?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I have seen -- I absolutely do not doubt, I do not doubt
21the -- you know, the integrity of the thing.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] If you will look at page 1 rather than the first one, page
230, if you look at page 1 as numbered at the bottom, you
24will see the signal at the bottom looks rather sinister,
25does it not? I have translated it on page 2. It is a
26message from Berlin to the Kommandant of Auschwitz,
1effectively, giving driving permission. Every time they
2made a journey by truck because of the shortage of fuel,
3they had to have permission from Berlin. "Permission
4herewith given for one five tonne truck with trailer to
5Dessau and back for the purpose of fetching materials for
6the Jew resettlement. This permit is to be handed to the
7driver to take with him". It is signed Levehenshal who is
8at Berlin still at that time. What interpretation would
9you put on that message, October 2nd, 1942?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That a truck, a five tonne truck, is sent to Dessau to
11collect material for the Jews' settlement. Dessau, as we
12know from other telegrams and as we know also from the
13rest of the record, was the location where the Zyklon-B
14was being produced in one of the factories. So, the
15context of what we know also of the other messages shows
16that this is most likely a permission to collect in a five
17tonne truck Zyklon-B from the original manufacturer.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] In fact, more than five tonnes because they are taking a
19trailer as well, are they not?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] With a trailer, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] So they are collecting over five tonnes -- it would be a
22reasonable assumption, based on this document, that they
23are collecting over five tonnes of some material which is
24probably Zyklon-B cyanide pellets?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes. I mean, I do not know exactly the weight, but
26I think that in the document I have written (of which you
1have a copy) on your suggestion more or less that I have
2dealt with this matter about how much the truck would
3have, most likely would have carried.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] It is specified clearly in this report, in this telegram,
5that it is for the Jew resettlement, for the
7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] For the Judenumsiedlung, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] That makes it even more sinister, does it not?
9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Given the fact what the word "Judenumsiedlung" had come to
10mean in 1942, yes, this would be quite a sinister
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you now turn over the page to page 3 which you can
13take it is a translation of the upper telegram on page 1?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I am sorry?
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 3 at the foot of -- you have no page 3?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I have page 3, but I look at No. 1.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] At No. 1, the upper telegram.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] It is a translation of the upper telegram No. 1?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, OK.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] This is from Gluks(?). Who is Gluks?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Gluks is the Chief of the Inspectorate for concentration
24 Q. [Mr Irving] He has the rank of something like a Brigadier General,
25does he not?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] This again is a driving permit sent to Auschwitz
3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Answering a request: "Permission herewith given for one
5automobile", a car, "to go from Auschwitz to
6Lischmannstadt and back on September 16th 1942 for the
7purpose of inspecting the experimental station for field
8kitchens for Operation Reinhard. This permit is to be
9handed to the driver to take with him"?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I think your translation is wrong there, Mr Irving.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Tell ----
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The "Dei Feldofen" in this case are "field ovens", and we
13know there is quite a documentation, not only eyewitness
14testimony, but quite an extensive documentation on this
15particular trip which was made by Kommandant Hirst and
16which also Mr Dejaco and Mr Hoessler, all were included
17and they were inspecting actually, they were going to
18Lischmannstadt to see the extermination site there, to
19actually look at the incineration grid, the incineration
20installation created by Studattenfuhrer Bloebel as part of
21Action 1005, to create a way to get rid of corpses which
22had been buried as a result of the killings in Chelmo. So
23this has nothing to do with kitchens, these Feldofen,
24but with incineration ovens to burn, to incinerate,
26 Q. [Mr Irving] "Field kitchens" would be "Feldkuchens", would it not?
1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That is more likely, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] So your submission is that this is a reference to going
3there to visit some kind of improvised grating, fire
4grating, of some kind ----
5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] --- on a large scale?
7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] They are actually -- we have Mr Dejaco, the chief of
8design in the Zentrale Bau, he actually made a sketch also
9of this incineration installation. It had been developed
10by Bloebel who was an architect in order to empty the mass
11graves which had been created in Chelmo as a result of the
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Bloebel had the very distasteful task of emptying out the
14mass graves and cremating the ----
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, he had the -- it was called Action 1005. He was
16going around sites where mass graves had been reacted in
17order to take out the corpses and to incinerate them so
18they were going to be no traces.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Why would it include the words an "experimental station"
20for the ----
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Because they were just developing the technology to do
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Does it take much technology to make a fire in the open on
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The Germans had not done this before yet. Bloebel was the
26person who developed the technology. Until then, the
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