Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 215

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     Again I think we should look at the material that is in my
 1given in the Tesh case because I thought it was
 2crematorium No. (i) he was talking about.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it known to you that Pery Broad was a Brazilian
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, I know that.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      In other words, he was not a German national, he was a
 7Brazilian national. Was Brazil fighting on the side of
 8the Allies in World War II?
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I think that ultimately Brazil joined, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      And yet he was wearing the uniform of the SS, of an enemy
11power and he was committing these crimes in the uniform of
12an enemy power?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I would like to remind the judge that many people in the
14SS were actually Vorstattue who had passports from
15different countries, from countries other than Germany.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      The significance of the fact he was Brazilian
17is escaping me at the moment, but...
18 MR IRVING:      I was about to say, would not the fact that he was
19a member of an allied nation fighting in German uniform
20have put him in precisely the same category as William
21Joyce or John Amery, and have exposed him to being put on
22trial in Brazil for treason? Was this not another threat
23that was hanging over his head at the time he was in
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I cannot possibly comment on that.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      But you do agree that he was technically committing

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 1treason by fighting in the uniform of an enemy power?
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I think that Mr Broad in May 1945 probably had other
 3things on his mind than that particular issue of if Brazil
 4was going to ask for his extradition.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you use the statement of a witness called Hans Stark as
 6proof of the gassings?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I have the statement in my report, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. In section 9, the Leuchter report of your report --
 9I am afraid again I do not know the page number -- you
10quoted from it and I will quote the passage that you have
11used, in your language: "As early as autumn 1941,
12gassings were carried out in a room in the small
13crematorium which had been prepared for this purpose. The
14room held 200 to 250 people"?
15 MR RAMPTON:      514, my Lord.
16 MR IRVING:      Thank you very much. I am indebted. I will begin
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      We are talking about Stark now, the Stark testimony?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      The testimony of the eyewitness Hans Stark: "As early as
20autumn 1941" -- this goes more to the question of your
21treatment of sources rather than crematorium No. (ii).
22"As early as autumn 1941 gassings were carried out in a
23room in the small crematorium which had been prepared for
24this purpose. The room held 200 to 250 people, had a
25higher than average ceiling, no windows only a specially
26insulated door with bolts like those of an airtight

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 1door." Is that your translation of that document?
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, this is my translation -- no, this is actually an
 3existing translation. If we go to the quote, we see it
 4was done by Deborah Burnstone.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Deborah?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Burnstone.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does it also give the original German of the text?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, it is not.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did you take any trouble to ascertain the original German
10of that text?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, I did not.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      If I tell that you the word "airtight", the word
13translated as "airtight door", in the original German is
14Luftschutzer, is that how you would have translated it?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      An airtight door as a Luftschutzer door?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      In the original German of Hans Stark it is "Luftschutzer"
17which has been translated ----
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      If you show me the passage, Mr Irving, I am happy to
19confirm or not that, indeed, that is the way ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am putting one word to you. The original German says
21not "airtight door" in English, but "Luftschutzer" in
22German. Would you tell the court what "Luftschutzer"
23translates into in English?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      "Airtight door", I would have thought?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      "Luftschutz" in general, "luft" means "air raid".
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Air protection.

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Luftschutz ----
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      "Luftschutz", yes, I see.
 3 MR IRVING:      Is an air raid and air raid [German], my Lord?
 4Now, either inadvertently or deliberately, somebody and
 5you say it is Burnstone has mistranslated that word from a
 6totally harmless and, in fact, significant "air raid door"
 7into the rather more sinister "airtight door"?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      In the context of quite a sinister description, I would
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, look at the context.
11 MR IRVING:      I beg your pardon?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Look at the context. As I understand it, she
13actually said "like those of an airtight door", but this
14is in the context of gassings in 1941 and Zyklon-B being
15poured through holes in the roof.
16 MR IRVING:      My Lord, there are any number of eyewitness
17statements like that which are in the report. I am just
18looking here at the quality of the translation which is
19frequently tilted against or tilted in favour of the
20Holocaust definition. Your Lordship will remember that
21I have been trying to establish the case that these
22sinister door scattered around the camps at Auschwitz and
23Birkenhau were, in fact, provisions for the coming air
24raids and the Germans anticipated there were going to be
25gas attacks as well, as, indeed, did we, British, with our
26air raid shelters.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I understand the suggestion, but what you
 2cannot possibly say, Mr Irving, is that Hans Stark is
 3describing an air raid shelter on the basis of this
 4passage, can you?
 5 MR IRVING:      I am concentrating here only on the door, my Lord.
 6I have no other means of attacking the integrity of Hans
 7Stark as a witness. I am looking here at the rather
 8slipshod use of the word "airtight door" when the original
 9is quite clearly referred to as looking just like an air
10raid shelter door of which we will be producing
11photographs to the court later on.
12     This is of significance because the Defence rely
13on a number of photographs of doors found scattered around
14the compound of Auschwitz and Birkenhau, and we will show
15that these are standard German air raid shelter doors
16complete with peep holes.
17     I think this is the time I would ask your
18Lordship to look at the little bundle of five pages of
19documents I produced this morning.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, certainly.
21 MR IRVING:      I have not yet handed it to your Lordship. It is
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Where are we going to put this? Shall we put
24it in ----
25 MR IRVING:      J, I think, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      --- J?

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