Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 215

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     This is possible indeed but let us now just go back for a
 1interpret. It is not so that, if the blueprints had been
 2there, and a man who is not an architect or even, for that
 3matter an historian who teaches in an architecture school,
 4when they are confronted with that, it is not that they
 5immediately are able to make up a story which matches
 6point for point information in the blueprint of a very
 7technical and specialist nature.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      But they would know, for example, the difference of left
 9from right, would they not? If for example they described
10a staircase being on one side of the building, or the
11rutsche, the slide, being on one side of the building when
12the drawing showed it on the other or vice verse, if they
13showed it on the side that the drawing showed it when in
14fact it was not built that way?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      One of the things we have to remember is that Tauber gives
16a description of crematorium (ii). It is a general
17description. However, sonderkommandos of crematorium (ii)
18and (iii) had access to both buildings. Sonderkommandos
19have testified to the fact that they lived in these
20buildings but they shared facilities. So they would be
21allowed to actually cross that little path and go over to
22the other crematorium and back. So we have two buildings
23which are mirror images of each other, which left and
24right are completely turned upside-down, which both are
25used by the same people, but otherwise are identical. So
26if at a certain movement he gets left or right wrong.

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 1I would not at that moment give such incredible
 2evidentiary value to that, that he is making it up, or
 3that he is totally confused. It is simply that these
 4buildings were identical except for the left and the right
 5of everything.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      In your original book you made one claim about the
 7position of the rutsche in a building which you then
 8reversed in your report. Is that correct?
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, I do not think so.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      You stated that it was on one side of the building on the
11drawings, and that in fact it was somewhere else.
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I am happy to consider this and to discuss it with you,
13but again show me the passage in the book and show me the
14passage in the report. I will deal with it then.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      This has all taken rather longer than I had hoped. I am
16sure his Lordship is getting impatient and we should move
17on. Can we move on now to the witness Pery Broad?
18Summing up on Tauber, one point, can I get you to make the
19following statement? Tauber described the cyanide being
20poured into the gas chamber of crematorium No. (ii)
21through holes in the roof. That is correct?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      If (and this is a hypothetical; it is one of Mr Rampton's
24if's) it should turn out there were never any such holes
25in the roof, then Tauber has lied, has he not?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Then he would have lied, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Thank you. We now move on to Mr Pery Broad. P-E-R-Y
 2Broad. This is, of course, a more general eyewitness
 3because he is also of relevance to Auschwitz rather than
 4Birkenhau, am I right?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Most of his testimony on at least gassings relates to
 6Sturmlager. And he only observed from a distance what was
 7happening in Birkenhau.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Very briefly we are going to deal with Mr Broad. Pery
 9Broad was employed by the British as an interrogator in a
10British camp; is that correct?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I would wonder if you can be more precise about what
12"employs" means in this case before I can say yes or no.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would it be reasonable -- your Lordship wished to say
14something, no -- to say that, in view of his special
15position within this prison camp, he was given special
16favours by the British, whether they be in the form of
17payment or accommodation or clothing or food or money?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      He was an inmate who was used in the inmate administration
19of the camp.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you tell me what happened at the end to Pery Broad
21back in the 1960s?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Pery Broad was tried in Frankfurt and he ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      As a war criminal?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      As a war criminal.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Eventually, he was put on trial by the Germans, is that

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      He was put on trial by the Germans. I think he was
 2convicted to two years or two-and-a-half years in prison.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Am I right in saying that he was convicted for the war
 4crime of having participated in shootings at block 11 in
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I do not know exactly what the judgment, what were the
 7reasons for his conviction, what crime he was convicted
 8for and what crime he was not.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      In other words, your eyewitness was a murderer who was
10going at some time to be prosecuted for war crimes by the
11Allies, quite rightly, and he had bought a certain amount
12of breathing space -- is this not a reasonable presumption
13-- by testifying in various cases that the British were
14bringing in Northern Germany?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Let us go back to the situation in a British internment or
16in a prison of war camp in, I think it was, Meklenberg,
17Northern Germany, very far away from Auschwitz in May
181945. If Mr Broad had not come forward to say he had been
19in Auschwitz, I think nobody would ever have found out
20because many SS men at that time were, basically, sitting
21in allied prison of war camps and were sitting there until
22they were released. So, certainly, Mr Broad, if he had
23not volunteered the information about Auschwitz, I think
24would have had anything to fear at that time because there
25were in that camp no surviving inmates from Auschwitz who
26could have identified him.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, the British had ways of identifying people. We had
 2lists of names, we had the code breaking intercepts and so
 3on. We knew who was who.
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Mr Broad was, as far as we know, a Rottenfuhrer. I do not
 5think his name was very high on the list of people the
 6British were looking for.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      The fact remains that he had a guilty conscious because he
 8had participated in shootings in Auschwitz concentration
 9camp, and eventually he was put on trial, not by the
10British, but by the Germans. The British treated him in
11some special way, is this correct?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      He was, he became an interpreter in the camp and then at a
13certain moment when he gave his evidence it was recognized
14that he was a very important witness.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. He is one of your eyewitnesses for the existence of
16the pipes on the roofs, admittedly at a distance, but he
17described, if I remember his testimony in the Tesh case
18correctly, these pipes on the roof being opened and people
19pouring stuff in. He described six of them rather than
20four, is that correct?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Again I think we should look at the material that is in my
22report, but I think at least I can say right now that what
23I remember that in the Tesh case he refers to a gassing
24happened in crematorium (i), that the particular incident
25you refer to. But again I think we should, before we have
26a final conclusion on that, look at the actual evidence

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