Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 215

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    Was this the man who said he needed two hands to
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I do not remember that he said it but, if you can point to
 3the passage ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      We went through the Tauber evidence in some detail
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      We did not discuss the thing on top, people manipulating
 7those covers.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. If he talks of concrete covers with two handles,
 9does this not rather contradict the story given by other
10eyewitnesses even of there being wooden lids on these
11openings, Holzblenden in German? They have not got their
12story straight, these eyewitnesses. They know a bit about
13the holes in the roof but they do not know quite what the
14covers were. They must assume that there were covers
15because otherwise the rain would get in. So one says
16concrete and another one says wood.
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      If you want to introduce that, I would be happy to comment
18on that. I do not even know which eyewitness you are
19talking about right now.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Tauber.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      No, the ones who say they were wooden, not
22concrete. That is what you mean, is it not?
23 MR IRVING:      My Lord, we will probably stumble across them in
24the course of time.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      That is not a very good way of
26cross-examining, if I may say so. Are you able to refer

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 1to them now?
 2 MR IRVING:      Not at this instant in time, my Lord.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      All right.
 4 MR IRVING:      If I was surrounded by research assistants, no
 5doubt I would be bombarded with copies of that very
 6document. Does Tauber not say --, I refer you now to
 7Pressac page 483. Do you have a copy of Pressac?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I do not.
 9 MR RAMPTON:      Your Lordship has the tab of Pressac at the back
10of H 2(vi).
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I do not have H 2(vi).
12 MR RAMPTON:      Then somebody will get it for your Lordship.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am sorry, I do not have the supporting
14documents in court.
15 MR RAMPTON:      I will find your Lordship the tab. It is tab 5.
16It folds out because Pressac is an oblong book. What has
17been copied here is just the Tauber chapter, I think.
18 MR IRVING:      Would you agree, reading this very detailed
19account, Professor, that it is likely that, when Tauber
20made this deposition to Jan Sehn, I believe it was made,
21they had in front of them the architectural blueprints to
22jog his memory?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      We had this yesterday, that point.
24 MR IRVING:      Very well. I am just drawing attention to how
25detailed it was. Yet he says that on either side of these
26pillars, the central support pillars, there were four

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 1others, two on each side. Now He is relying on his memory
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Where are you now?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      We are now back in the gas chamber? Where are we at page
 5483? OK. We are at the top of 484, the first column to
 6the left.
 7 MR IRVING:      Thank you very much.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I have not got the pagination so there is no
 9way I am going to find this.
10 MR IRVING:      It is over the page, the page beginning with the
11words "middle of its length".
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I just do not have page numbers, that is the
13problem. They have all been cut off.
14 MR IRVING:      I will read it out. It says, "On other side of
15these pillars there were four others, C1 to C4, two on
16each side". Mr Pressac, who is quite an expert on this,
17says that Mr Tauber is mistaken, this arrangement is found
18only in the gas chamber of crematorium (iii). He is
19confusing things, is he not?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Mr Pressac?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      No. Mr Tauber is confusing things.
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I know that Mr Pressac thinks that. I do not agree with
23Mr Pressac. There is no evidence at all that Pressac is
24right on this issue.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      That Pressac is sometimes wrong, in other words?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Oh, yes. Pressac is sometimes wrong. I have had my

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 1quarrels with Pressac in the past.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      He says, and I am quoting again, "The gas chamber had no
 3water supply of its own".
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Where are we now?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      I only have extracts, unfortunately. Further down that
 6same column, Pressac says that three taps were in fact
 7installed in the room, according to the drawing?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I am just trying to find this thing.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      According to the inventory.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I see the gas chambers, no water supply and so on, it is
11around two inches from the bottom, and the first column,
12the same column where the pillars were described.
13 MR IRVING:      Yes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am not following why that is a criticism of
15Tauber at the moment.
16 MR IRVING:      Well, he has made another error.
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      There is a little note. It is followed by a little note
18which says ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Saying they were later taken out?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, so we do not know which day or date Tauber was
21referring to.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. You yourself have confirmed that at the end of 1943,
23I believe, the gas chamber was divided into two by a brick
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the small transports could be handled. Mr Tauber

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 1confirmed this. He is the source of that information, is
 2he not?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No. There is also a Greek. Actually, in my report I
 4mention a Greek Jew who was transported from Seloniki, who
 5actually mentions also, he was quite specific in his
 6description of that division of the gas chamber.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Another eyewitness?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, another eyewitness.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there any trace of that division in the ruins?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      You cannot see that. That is the problem because the roof
11has collapsed on the floor of the gas chamber.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. It would not make much sense, would it, to all the
13bodies that far because this small transports were gassed
14in the chamber furthest from the entrance, so the bodies
15would have been pulled the whole way down. Would that not
16have made gassing of large numbers like 2,000 at a time
17very difficult?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      If you have the small chamber at the back, you would gas
19fewer people and, in fact, as we have seen in the Olaire
20drawing, it actually provides an opportunity for the
21so-called dentists among the sonderkommando and the people
22who cut the hair to actually do their work downstairs and
23not in the incineration room, as was usually the custom.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      He also describes, does he not, the crematorium chimneys
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     

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