Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition
Pages 6 - 10 of 215
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1 Q. [Mr Irving] Was this other evidence contained in any of your reports
2or in your published book?
3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] It is contained in a report. It is also contained -- it
4is basically a number of images I would like to introduce
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just be clear? Are we talking about
7crematorium (ii) or generally?
8 MR IRVING: We are still talking about crematorium No. (ii), my
9Lord, the one of which we had these large photographs.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I just wanted to be clear.
11 MR IRVING: We are talking specifically about the Leichenkeller
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Or, even more specifically, we are talking about the way
14Zyklon-B was introduced in that Leichenkeller by means of
15wire mesh columns which above ground were capped with a
16kind of introduction device, a chimney like introduction
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Rather like a funnel of some kind?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Some kind of little chimney.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Was this introduction device made of wire mesh or was it
21made of concrete or do you have any evidence?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Tauber describes it as a chimney with a concrete lid, but
23I would like at the moment, with your permission, just to
24introduce the evidence and maybe we can consider the
26 Q. [Mr Irving] This is the eyewitness Tauber you are referring to?
1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes. My Lord, I would like to go to core file Auschwitz
22, the trial bundle,.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: K2 we are talking about?
4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No. 2, K2, and I would like to go to tab 1 where it is
5called "Plans and blueprints", and I would like to go to
6page No. 10 and No. 10A.
7 MR IRVING: Handwritten 10?
8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think it must be a handwritten 10.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes. It is 22 printed and 45 printed, but it is 10 and
1110A. That is how the numbers of the sequence in which
12these images are in the file.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: These are photographs?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] These are photographs, and what we see here is we have an
15image of the back of crematorium (ii) in February 1942.
16You see it is winter. The photo is very clear. There is
17snow on the ground. We are looking at the foreground is
18actually the construction site of the Klaranlage, the
19sewage waste, the sewage treatment plant. We look at the
20back of the crematorium, and we see there the main
21building with the roof and the chimney and then, jutting
22out from that building and it is clearer on the next page,
23we see the gas chamber, or the morgue No. 1 as a kind of
24box, a low box like structure, and on top of that we see
25four boxes. It is certainly three of them are very clear
26and maybe the fourth one to the left right under the
1window. This would be the third double window from the
2left of the building. We see these box like, chimney
3like, structures which jut up from this low, this low box
4like structure, which is morgue No. 1.
5 This is a picture of the building as it was on
6the construction. Shortly after this photo was taken the
7gas chamber itself, or the morgue No. 1 itself, was
8covered with dirt, and so that the projection of the
9little chimneys above the level of the roof of the morgue
10in the final result would probably have been less, but we
11do not, of course, know if we look at the finished
12chimneys right now or if these were in some way still
13capped with another kind of structure.
14 So this is, I think, a very important piece of
15evidence because this is a photo taken by a member of the
16SS Bauleitung, Schaffuhrer Kaman. He was the only one
17allowed with a camera in the camp and this photo very
18clearly shows the structures.
19 MR IRVING: Can I interrupt you at this point?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, of course.
21 MR IRVING: Right. I am anxious to let the witness have his
22say, but you refer to them as "chimneys"; of course, they
23are not. They are objects on this photograph. We do not
24know what the objects are. Professor, have you,
25presumably, in your life visited a building site?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] And have you seen flat roofs on building sites under
3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen these roofs when they are being treated with
5some kind of substance to water proof them?
6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] What does the substance come in? Would I be right in
8saying it comes in 40 gallons drums or something like
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I would not be able to comment on that. I mean, if you
11want to assert it comes in 40 gallon drums, I will accept
13 Q. [Mr Irving] But it comes in drums, does it not? These drums stand
14around the roof while the men brush it up and down on the
15roof. This kind of thing happens?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That is quite possible.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] And this photograph was taken in the winter of 1942?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] At this time this particular building was under
20construction, was it not? They were stilling
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] It was under construction.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] It was under construction. Of course, if we cut straight
24to the bottom line in this, if we are to accept your
25hypothesis or theory that these were rather irregularly
26spaced openings in the roof, and these were some kind of
1pipe on top of that, as I understand you are putting to
2the court, with some kind of cover on top, then we would
3expect to find the openings in the roof, would we not, or
4some trace of those openings in the roof even today? Here
5is the roof now, that is the very roof we are talking
6about, is it not? That has pancaked downwards. The
7underside of the roof is largely intact. You can see just
8where those columns would have been then, these openings
9would have been, and there is not the slightest trace of
10them, is there?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I have said, it is in my report that one cannot observe
12these things, but I have also said before that when the
13gas chamber was dismantled before the destruction of this
14building, two months before the destruction of this
15building, it would have been a very likely, I mean, the
16obvious solution would have been to actually close these
17holes. Now, I have also mentioned yesterday ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] I am going to question you on that in a minute.
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I wonder if I should go back to the discussion of
20yesterday or address straight the issue of the boxes with
21material, the alleged boxes with the material on the roof.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, we will come back to the alleged boxes with material
23on the roof, but I must hold up your statement to the
24court where you said that just before demolition of the
25building, workers were sent in with the instructions to
26fill the holes with cement or concrete or something?
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