Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 215

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     I must say there is a difference between the architectural
 1exterior of the crematorium with flames and smoke belching
 2from the chimney. Now, would you agree that these
 3crematoria, in which the Germans had invested a great deal
 4of money in building, would have been built to the latest
 5design standards?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Design standards of what, Mr Irving?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      For crematoria, following all the appropriate technical
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Mr Irving, we know very well that the Auschwitz crematoria
10did not follow the usual civilian crematoria design
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there one single photograph, apart from the forged one
13put by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in their brochure
14(which they have admitted is a forgery) showing the
15chimneys of the Auschwitz crematoria smoking?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      There is one ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Even smoking, let alone flaming like this one?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      There is one photo, as far as I remember, in the images of
19the Hungarian action of 1944 which actually shows some
20smoke coming from a crematorium chimney.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is the photograph I am referring to which the Simon
22Wiesenthal Centre have admitted now because they have been
23shown the comparison with the original, unretouched
24photograph. Can I describe this photograph to you?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Do you know about this?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, I do not know about the challenge to this photograph.

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 1 MR IRVING:      Well, it is a photograph showing prisoners arriving
 2from the Hungarian action in the foreground, and in the
 3background can be seen a chimney of a crematorium. On the
 4original photograph the chimney is not smoking, but in the
 5version posted by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in its
 6publicity smoke has mysteriously appeared?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I refer to the published version of the photo and the copy
 8of the photo, which actually is a copy of the photo, a
 9print of the photo, which I have seen in Auschwitz.
10I have never seen the Simon Wiesenthal publication.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, the position is you will have to
12prove that in due course.
13 MR IRVING:      I will bring those photographs to court, my Lord.
14(To the witness): One more question about the Olaire
15pictures. Of course, have you seen all the Olaire
16pictures or just the ones you have produced at the court?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I have seen all the Olaire pictures.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, would it be right to say that he has a prurient
19interest in the female form?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I do not know how this is relevant. I mean...
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Concerning his mental balance.
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I think ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Or the purpose for which these illustrations were made --
24let us put it like that.
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I think that if one would judge the ability of someone to
26bear witness on the basis of their interest in the female

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 1form, I think that not many people would be able to give
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you agree that in almost every single one of these
 4pictures he has drawn, for whatever purpose -- there is
 5another photograph that I have given there which is not in
 6your collection -- there are naked women full frontal on
 7to the artist's brush, so to speak, and that there is no
 8reason whatsoever that he should have made these pictures
 9in that way unless he intended to sell them. Is that a
10fair speculation?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Mr Irving, I do not want to comment on what I understand
12your suggestion is that we are dealing here with a
13pornographer. I think it is absolutely not worth me to go
14into that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      I did not use the word "pornography". I said that his
16purpose in drawing these pictures was to produce a
17marketable item which he could sell in the media at some
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Mr Irving, you will have prove to me, if you want to me to
20comment on it, that he ever tried to sell these things in
21the media.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Let me put the question this way. Is it likely that
23nearly all the females who became victims of the
24bestialities of the Nazis in Auschwitz were nubile, young
25and attractive?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, it is not very likely.

.      P-53

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Not likely. Thank you very much. No further questions on
 2this particular matter. I want to go back to the
 3testimony of the witness Bimko, unless Professor van
 4Pelt ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Can we just ask, is there any further
 6material that you rely on, apart from the eyewitnesses,
 7for saying that crematorium (ii) was used as a gas
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      We can go through the documents. If you want the
10construction documents of the crematoria, this will be
11quite a long exercise.
12 MR IRVING:      Are they explicit as to the use of the building?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      We have documents which -- we have a document, for
14example, about the Vergasungskeller which you know well.
15We have a document about the ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      We need not bother with that. We know about
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      --- the construction, the construction where at a certain
19moment we get an Auskleiderkellers in the basement. We
20talk about the introduction of hot hair into morgue No. 1,
21the proposition being made which breaks down very quickly
22after it has been introduced. I am happy to go in detail
23through those letters if you want me to.
24 MR IRVING:      We will deal, if you wish, with the introduction of
25hot air. We have dealt with the undressing room,
26I believe, earlier in this case?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Maybe you have dealt, Mr Irving, I have not dealt with it
 2and his Lordship asked me if I wanted to introduce other
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I just want to get the full picture. I do
 5not want you to spend very long on this, but you deal with
 6this in your report, do you not, at some length?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      In detail, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      So we could call this corpus of evidence the ----
 9 MR RAMPTON:      My Lord, I do think that at some stage Mr Irving
10has to put it directly to Professor van Pelt what he says
11about the -- Mr Irving's thesis in cross-examination by me
12was that it was, indeed, a vergasungskeller, but that it
13was used for gassing lice or people that were already
15 MR IRVING:      The way I put it was that it had alternative other
17 MR RAMPTON:      I do think at some stage Mr Irving has to allow
18Professor van Pelt to deal with that thesis which includes
19the references to "Auskliederkeller".
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      So no human killing but delousing?
21 MR RAMPTON:      That was Mr Irving's response to my
22cross-examination and the evidence about the cyanide in
23the zinc covers and the word "Vergasungskeller", yes,
24indeed. They used it for gassing, clothes, people.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      And objects.
26 MR RAMPTON:      And objects.

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