Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition
Pages 41 - 45 of 215
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1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] At the bottom level, No. D. Of course, the gas chamber,
2taken from this perspective, would have been hidden by,
3when we see the soldier standing at No. C in the corridor,
4the gas chamber would have basically been running to the
5back out of the plain of the ----
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Towards the ----
7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Not towards, that would have been crematorium (ii). It
8runs away from us, if we go back to the original plan
9I showed you which was No. (i). So the problem he had of
10how to represent that gas chamber. So he drew it as if it
11is under the incineration room because there was no other
12way to really represent it, because he also wants to
13represent the undressing room which is No. A. You see
14there are basically two stairs, one stair to the left for
15people that are going down and we see the second stair is
16at No. B.
17 MR IRVING: In other words, his memory was wrong; he drew it in
18a way it actually was not?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No, his memory is absolutely right.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] But you said that he drew it in a way that it is not
21because he wanted to represent it -- he could not do it
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No, I mean, he had to represent the location of the gas
24chamber which is because the gas chamber jots out from the
25plain of the drawing. He now draws it under the
26incineration room, but, in fact, it goes, you know, it
1goes to the back. I can do it, I mean, if this is the
2plain of the drawing, then the gas chamber would have gone
3like this, to the back. So he has to represent it one way
4or another and he does it a little bit in the way as
5probably somebody in ancient Egypt would have done it.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Was Mr Olaire ever interrogated or questioned? Did he
7provide eyewitness statements?
8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No, I am happy to answer that he was not, but I would like
9to finish the drawing.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, make your point on this because I have
11not understood it yet.
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The major point is seen at No. E, one sees here in the
13drawing, and the photocopy is not very good, but E points
14at some shadow -- it is almost seems like a shadow going
15down from the roof of the gas chamber to the bottom, and
16then you see three others, and the most right one is the
17clearest one in this photocopy and these are the four wire
18mesh introduction columns.
19 MR IRVING: This is in 1946?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] This is in 1946.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You are saying that he has not heard any stories at all of
22what allegedly went on?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I do not know exactly about the state of communication in
241945 and '46, but the eyewitness testimony about these
25introduction columns was given in May 1945 to Jan Sehn,
26but it was only published somewhere in 1946 and it was
1actually the actual Kuhler document, and the actual, I
2mean, I mean the results were only published but the
3statements themselves were never published.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I not right in saying that Mr Tauber, when he gave his
5statements to Jan Sehn, there were many photo
6opportunities and his photographs were splashed all over
7the press with stories, the other eyewitness, and that
8would have been early 1946 or 1945?
9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I do not know of any photo opportunities for Mr Tauber
10having been published in the press. If you can bring
11this, you know, I would be very happy to consider it.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor van Pelt, can I just make sure
13I have understood it, that when you say that these show
14the projections, whatever they may have been, you are
15talking about -- can you see -- that smudge there, that
16smudge there, that smudge there?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No, that is actually, that is the installation which
18brings forced air into the ovens which actually, so that
19other little -- no, the smudges are going down. I tried
20to interpret what your finger is doing.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] There?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No, that is the door. That is the door. You are pointing
23now to the door.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Hold up your plan and tell me where I am supposed to see
25evidence of these projections?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Do you see the arrow with No. E?
1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Yes.
2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There you see where it just goes down, the arrow just
3points at a first line going down, but the most clearest
4one is the one ----
5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Oh, I see.
6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] --- the clearest one is the one which is half a centimetre
7away from D Olaire, for his name. There are four of these
8columns quite literally drawn into this gas chamber going
10 MR IRVING: But, in fact, he has it on the wrong side of the
11building. You accept that?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, he has turned it 90 degrees on its
13axis, that is your evidence?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes. Then we have a third piece by Olaire which again is
15a drawing from 1946 which is No. 7. There we see two
16sonderkommandos who are collecting, as it says, gold teeth
17and hair in the gas chamber. Then we see in the
18background, we see one of those columns.
19 MR IRVING: The cross-hatching, you mean?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The cross-hatching, yes. It is drawn in the same way ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you saying they actually did this job of removing the
22gold teeth and the hair actually inside the gas chamber?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No. In general, they did it outside the gas chamber, but
24you must remember ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving] The picture says it is happening in the gas chamber,
26according to you?
1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] But you must remember that by the end of 1943 the gas
2chamber of crematorium (ii) was divided into two. There
3was a back gas chamber and there was a gas chamber in
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Here is the wire mesh in the back of this picture?
6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No, but there were two wire mesh columns in the back gas
7chamber and there were two wire mesh columns in the front
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Coming out of these non-existent holes in the roof, is
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Whatever. What happened was that when the transports were
12smaller, one of the big problems in the gassing the
13Germans had was that normally they had to fill up the
14whole gas chamber for the gassing really to go efficient.
15So by actually dividing the gas chamber up into two, they
16could gas a group in the small gas chamber at the back,
17and then they could use the front room after the gassing
18for work which otherwise would be done in the much more
19tight confinement of actually the little porch or up at
20the exit of the elevator in the incineration room.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask what your source is for that statement?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The source for the statement that there were two gas
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That they divided the gas chamber into two
25and used one half only for gassing?
26 MR IRVING:
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