Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 215

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     Yes. It is not exactly. It was not taken from the same
 1photograph you can see these lines going in, which
 2actually were used for labels, attach labels to it, and
 3when they were published in 1979 or so, and you do not see
 4those lines pointing to crematorium 3, the morgue No. 1
 5and the fence in the image on page No. 5, printed No. 4.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      On page 5 crematorium (ii) is on the left.
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes. Crematorium (ii) is on the left.
 9 MR IRVING:      Are these the same photographs, Professor?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, they do not seem to be. I think they are the same
11photograph but they come from a different source.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      I do not think they can be the same photographs Professor,
13because of course the shadow of the chimney is going in
14the different direction, unless I am wrong..
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The shadow of the chimney goes in the same direction. We
16see the shadow of the chimney going north west in both
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think one may be the mirror image of the
19other but I am not sure it matters very much whether they
20are the same photographs?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      So the question posed to me was the size of the objects.
22It is very difficult to determine the size of the objects,
23because of the way the shadow works. If one looks at the
24shadow of the chimney, one sees that the chimney really
25projects considerably out of the building, the shadow of
26the chimney. So it seems to be the sun is coming in this

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 1case from the southeast. I do not know exactly what time,
 2maybe it comes from the east more.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I would not build too much on that, because
 4I think it could be the same photograph which has been put
 5in the wrong way round, as it were.
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, they are exactly the same.
 7 MR IRVING:      I accept they are the same photographs. Would you
 8agree that both the chimney of the crematorium and
 9whatever these pipe like objects you say are would all be
10vertical? They would not be leaning in any one direction?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The object, you mean?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The chimney itself and the ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Both the crematorium chimney and the protruberances on the
15roof which you think these dots are, would they all be
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      So they would all cast shadows in the same direction, at
19the same angle, would they not, if that were so?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, that is quite likely.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      On this photograph they clearly do not cast shadows in the
22same direction. The smudges or dots appear to be first
23one way and then another?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, that is the indeed true.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are these dots visible on any of the other air photographs
26taken of that building?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes they are.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Either before or after?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you going to show these photographs to us?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No. I just selected one.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, might I suggest that it would have been helpful to
 7the court if you had produced the other photographs that
 8you allege exist containing these dots?
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I thought that this was sufficient, but I presume the
10court can obtain them if they want it. But I think that
11these dots show very clearly that there are four
12introduction devices in morgue No. 1, or four something on
13top of that roof.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Professor, I strongly suggest that is a major quantum leap
15to suggest that a dot which on the face of it is about 15
16feet long on the roof of this crematorium building can
17have anything at all to do with the protruberances that
18you were talking about earlier, which at its largest
19extent in the eyewitness evidence that I have seen is of
20the order of 36 inches.
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Mr Irving, the whole of the width of what you call the
22alleged gas chamber I think is something like, what is it,
23a little less than 20 feet. So, if you look at the width
24of this room and you look then at the dots, we are
25certainly not talking about dots which are 15 feet wide.
26We are more looking at dots which are probably 3 feet

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 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      I strongly disagree. They are over one quarter of the
 3width of that roof in all their versions and
 4manifestations on these various photographs.
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I am not going to argue at moment about the width.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Moreover, they cast no shadow.
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      It is impossible to say what kind of shadow they cast.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      They cast no shadow.
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Mr Irving, we are looking at an immensely enlarged image
10from a small negative. These negatives, by the way, my
11Lord, have been preserved. They are sitting all on a roll
12and they have been preserved. These photos have been
13analysed by two different parties.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you name those two different parties please?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Mr John Ball in Canada and in British Columbia was the
16first one who analysed these photos in the early 1990s.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it not correct they were first analysed by a man
18called Mr Brigioni?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, the CIA. I am sorry, indeed the CIA published these
20photos in 1979.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      About 1974, I believe?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Whatever, 1974, 1979.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you aware of the fact that Mr Brigioni, the author of
24that publication of photographs, the CIA operative who,
25with a fellow author, first published these photographs,
26has recently published a book called Photo Fakery?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I am not.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      In which he sets out chapter by chapter how easy it is to
 3forge photographs, as we all know. Using modern computers
 4and this kind of thing you can take people out of
 5photographs and move people around. This same Mr Brigioni
 6is an expert on photo forgery. Are you aware of that
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I was not. I presume that, with today's computer
 9technology, he indeed would be able to do this.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Are you suggesting, Mr Irving, that these
11photographs are forgeries?
12 MR IRVING:      I am not suggesting that per se, my Lord, but what
13I am suggesting is that one has to be alert to the
14possibility that somebody, for whatever reason, has put a
15smudge on these photographs. The National Archives of the
16United States, where the original photographs were housed
17in the cartographic division, at the time they were issued
18by the CIA, the National Archives issued a disclaimer
19saying these photographs, as they are housed in the
20National Archives Cartographic Branch, do not contain the
21labelling which the CIA has attached. They made no
22references to these actual dots or anything. They just
23dissociated themselves from the kind of treatment.
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      My Lord, may I continue? Because I was asked ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. What question do you think you are

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