Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 215

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     I would like to point out to you that in fact, if we see
 1the kind of converging parallel lines of the formwork
 2going from the top of the photo, then passing over at
 3least two big kind of stains, which shows it is not very
 4smooth, and then suddenly that formwork stops because
 5there is actually a diagonal line going more or less from
 6the top left of the picture to the middle of the right
 7hand side, so the form work certainly not very regular,
 8which it is very easy to see on this photo.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      You do accept, do you not, that the whole of the story of
10the 500,000 people killed in that chamber rises or falls,
11rests or falls on the existence of those holes in that
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      We only have the eyewitness evidence.
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I disagree with that. The whole story rises and falls on
16the evidence that this room was a gas chamber, which is a
17slightly different issue.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, setting that aside for a moment and we will come
19back to that other evidence in a moment, we still have not
20heard any other evidence than the eyewitness evidence we
21have heard about.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, before you leave the photograph,
23took this photograph?
24 MR IRVING:      A number of, shall we say, revisionist researchers
25have gone down there and taken these photographs.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      The professionals say it is revisionist

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 2 MR IRVING:      It is revisionist research, my Lord, but the point
 3I was about to make was, as your Lordship may apprehend it
 4was, as it is now accepted and has been accepted for some
 5years that the whole story rises and falls on the
 6existence of holes, one would have expected the
 7researchers at the other end of the spectrum to have been
 8down frantically looking for those holes to prove us wrong
 9and they have not. They have not bothered to scrape off
10the rubble on the top to look for the evidence on top of
11the holes. They have not bothered to make any kind of
12survey clearing aside this brick mess underneath, digging
13deeper in, looking for evidence that those holes exist and
14frankly, my Lord, I cannot accept the notion that the
15Nazis, in the last frantic days when we heard yesterday
16they were in a blue funk, blowing up buildings, taking out
17the equipment, dismantling everything nut and bolt, that
18they would have gone round with a bucket of cement filling
19in the holes of the buildings they were about to dynamite.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      That is in the nature of a small speech and
21obviously you will be making that point later on, but for
22the time being press on with your questions.
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      My Lord, may I respond to this? Can I take the speech as
24a question?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Let us deal with it slightly more
26evidentially. You are being asked for the evidence you

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 1rely on apart from the eyewitnesses.
 2 MR IRVING:      My Lord ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Just pause. You have your shout and I am
 4going to have mine. You have identified the photographs
 5which we have just been looking at, and I think we are
 6going to want to know what other evidence you rely on.
 7Mr Irving, that is not an inconvenient moment to ask that
 8question, is it?
 9 MR IRVING:      I was just going to ask one supplementary question,
10which is to your knowledge, Professor, have any
11investigations of the underside of that roof been made by
12the Auschwitz museum authorities or the Polish
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I do not know, my Lord.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you believe that, if there was any doubt as to the
16existence of those holes, or if there was any belief that
17those holes really existed, is it not likely that they
18would have made the most strenuous attempts to establish
19that fact?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I cannot second guess the way the Auschwitz museum or the
21Polish authorities operate. What I do know is that they
22do not generally allow their research agenda to be set by
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Very well.
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      My Lord, may I introduce a second piece of evidence?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. I would find it helpful, Mr Irving, to

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 1know what other evidence. You started by asking what
 2other evidence is there.
 3 MR IRVING:      This is the question I asked earlier on and I did
 4say that we would come back to that.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      We have the answer now.
 6 MR IRVING:      We have the eyewitnesses to whose integrity I shall
 7be coming back later on this morning, but let us hear what
 8else you have?
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The second piece of evidence I would like to introduce is
10in tab No. 2, and it is circled photo No. 6, which is an
11air photo taken by Americans in the summer of 1944, which
12shows, if we look at that --, I do not know exactly how to
13turn it. If one looks at the photo from the side, we see
14crematorium (ii) to the right and crematorium 3 to the
15left. Now, one sees in this photo very clearly jutting
16out the undressing room. It is actually the entry at the
17end. It is like a little tab attached to it, and the
18morgue No. 1, and on morgue No. 1 there are four dots. In
19the same morgue No. 1 at crematorium 3 one sees those
20three dots.
21 MR IRVING:      You describe them as dots, Professor. Would you
22like to estimate how long those dots actually are?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      The dots are going, as it were, in a line up
24to the top of the page. Are these the dots there?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I see.

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 1 MR IRVING:      If I may point them out on this large colour map,
 2my Lord, they go along this roof here, do they not, which
 3is the alleged gas chamber? Right?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      OK.
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      So that is a second piece of evidence, and I will leave it
 7to this for the movement. I presume Mr Irving will
 8challenge this and I will respond to his challenge.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      I did ask you a question if you remember. This was, would
10you estimate on the evidence in front of you approximately
11how big those dots are?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I find it very difficult. I do not know exactly how the
13shadow runs.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that a shadow or an object?
15 MR RAMPTON:      My Lord, can I intervene to be helpful? There is
16an even clearer photograph, a medium enlargement, on the
17previous page in the bundle on the right-hand side.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, that is a better photograph. I think
19that is helpful.
20 MR RAMPTON:      It is even clearer.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Is it the same photograph?
22 MR RAMPTON:      I do not know. The witness will know that.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      More overexposed, as it were, than the other
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes. It is not exactly. It was not taken from the same
26thing because you can see near crematorium 3, on the one

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