Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 215

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      The fact remains, does it not, that the guidelines say
 2mortuaries have to be warmed and they are going to have
 3the local building inspector from Kattowitz or Cracow
 4coming round and he is going to say, ' Oy, you have not
 5got heating in here, cannot switch on until you have the
 6heating fixed"?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The fact of the matter, my Lord, is that these are merely
 8guidelines. If the guidelines in Neufert had been
 9followed by the Auschwitz central building office, they
10would have included the heating for the heating system and
11also probably the cooling system for the morgue from the
12beginning in the design. This has not been done. For a
13year and a half this design has been developed without any
14ability whatsoever to bring any heat in that morgue so it
15is absolutely, I think, nonsense to suggest that, with
16this Neufert in mind, the Auschwitz architects were
17designing their morgues.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      By March 1943 how far advanced was the
19construction of crematoria (ii) and (iii)?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The building was finished and the design started in
21October 1941.
22 MR IRVING:      They could not switch it on because they had not
23made provision for the heating at this point.
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      They had forgotten it, but the inspector in Kattowitz
25obviously had also overlooked this one issue.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      But the burden of the letter of course says this is a very

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 1cost effective way of doing the heating. It is not saying
 2you have forgotten the heating, it is saying let's do it
 3by this way because that is going to save the Reich money
 4or fuel or whatever.
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Please, Mr Irving, show me any other letter. I have never
 6seen one. I am under oath, I understand, here. I have
 7never seen any other letter talking about bringing any
 8heating, any hot air, or any other means of heating into
 9the morgue.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      But fact remains that mortuaries have to be warmed, so our
11common sense for once is wrong. The audience is wrong in
12this particular question. The book gets it right. The
13book says it has to be kept in a range of temperatures
14between 2 degrees and 12 degrees, either by heating or by
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      What about crematoria 4 and 5? Was there any
17heating provided for that?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      There were stoves in crematoria 4 and 5.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      That was how they heated them?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, no cooling installation.
21 MR IRVING:      Would you now turn to page 255, please? We have
22now left the heating element.
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Sorry, my Lord, I would like to come back to this answer
24because I have made a mistake. The "them" you refer to
25were probably morgues. I refer to the gas chambers of
26crematoria 4 and 5.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I was referring to the morgues or the
 2mortuaries, yes. Did they have any heating?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      There was a mortuary in crematoria 4 and 5 and they did
 4not have any heating.
 5 MR IRVING:      Will you now turn to page 255 of the architects
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      This shows halfway down on the right things that are
 9needed for air raid shelters. Does this show a door
10opening outwards? Can you see the metal gas tight door
11with the typical heavy handles?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Can you refer me to the particular passage?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Page 255, on the page called Luftshutz air raid protection
14ARP, and it has various sketched layouts of air raid
15shelters and various air raid protection installations.
16I am sorry, my Lord, I should have provided you with a
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am following.
19 MR IRVING:      Do you agree that that shows a steel door or a door
20of some heavy substance designed to open outwards with
21handles on the outside?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I do not see any steel door. That is the problem. Oh
23there is a door.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. Two of them?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes. That is one.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      (German spoken - document not provided) 4104. They

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 1actually had a German standard, the equivalent of British
 2standard, what a standard gas tight door looked like. I
 3will make an enlargement of this and provide it to your
 4Lordship because it is exactly like the doors that
 5I believe the other side will produce pictures of.
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      OK. It is unclear to see what is in and out in this
 7drawing. To be very honest, if this door is hung on the
 8inside -- again it is a very technical matter and I am
 9uncomfortable discussing this without you actually seeing
10the picture.
11 MR RAMPTON:      I am also a bit uncomfortable trying to follow a
12cross-examination when I do not have the document.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I know, but let us try and do the best we
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Shall I draw what actually the picture shows and then I
16think we have a very quick answer.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      You are saying that the drawing is equivocal
18about whether it opens inwards or outwards?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No. It shows that this door actually turns towards the
20inside and there is a very easy way to substantiate that.
21 MR IRVING:      Do you wish to explain why.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. If you want to, yes, do.
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The door is on the inside of the wall, so there is a wall
24and the question is where would the door be hung. I am
25trying to think this through.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I cannot see that that would affect which way

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 1it opened, but maybe I am missing something.
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      May I draw it?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, of course.
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I have in my bag a lot of air raid shelter designs in
 5Auschwitz. So there is a wall right here. There is a
 6wall right there, and then the door is hung sitting right
 7here, and the door is like that. The implication of
 8course is that the door opens like that.
 9 MR IRVING:      It is not going to open any other way.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is going to come up against----
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I just want to say that I am talking here, just trying to
13think out loud. I do not have anything more right now
14about it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think I know what you are going to say
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I have not seen this door and I have not inspected this
18particular shelter, but if indeed the door is fastened
19right here and right there, it would make sense to me to
20think that, if the hinges are right there, the hinges
21would be on the inside, not on the outside because, if
22they are on the outside, it would be easy to blast them
23off. That is all I can say right now if you want to
24determine what is inside and outside. I do not want to
25make any more specific statements on this. But we can
26look at documentation on doors and air raid shelter design

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