Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 215

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     I am not accepting that part of the statement
 1because I have not seen any evidence that bears that part
 2of the statement out. I have seen evidence that it was
 3referred to by the German authorities as there was
 4Vergasungskeller, there was room for gassing in.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      But you still do not accept that it was in
 6fact there was gas chamber? Is that the position?
 7 MR IRVING:      That is precisely my position, my Lord.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Then we go through the drawings.
 9 MR IRVING:      The drawings, but only in respect to elucidating
10this point. You said that you had two or three matters in
11the drawings which you thought would bear out this
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I am just trying to make up my mind how to do this. We
14are going to go through there was complex exercise in
15which I have now to make up my mind how to work most
16effectively through this.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Just think. Do you want to adjourn for five
19 MR IRVING:      Alternatively, we could come back to this question
20on Friday, my Lord, which would give one whole day to look
21at the drawings and I could move on to the prewarming
22question, which is the next one logically. I would prefer
23to do that, frankly.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think, since we have reached the point of
25the drawings and we have just had that exchange, I would
26slightly prefer to do it now.

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      May I ask something? There are some ways this could be
 2helpful because I am not completely unprepared for this
 3thing. I have two ex students of mine make on the basis
 4of all the blueprints there was computer model of
 5crematorium No. (ii). This is only on the basis of the
 6blueprints and whatever is added is very clear. For
 7example, the only thing which is added are the Zyklon-B
 8introduction columns which are clearly not in the
 9blueprints, and there was speculative depiction in one of
10them of how the hot air system would have worked. This is
11all prepared. I have slides of this whole reconstruction
12by which we can actually translate the blueprints into
13something which laymen in architecture can read. I have
14them also as pictures that were printed out.
15     On Friday, with always the blueprint right next
16to it, I could give there was complete presentation of
17this building to show the important things which would
18maybe help your Lordship to get quicker into the gist of
19things. It is something I am prepared to do. I can do it
20without it, but it will be more of there was struggle to
21do without it.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, do you have any objection to that
23being done as an exercise?
24 MR RAMPTON:      That is what I would have proposed, my Lord.
25Given what I would submit is the relative collapse of the
26eyewitness evidence in relation to this building ----

.      P-157

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Just answer the question. Do not worry about
 2the eyewitness evidence.
 3 MR IRVING:      Then the answer is yes I think it would be very
 4fair to Professor van Pelt.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      We will do that on Friday.
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      In forms of slides or with the pictures?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Whichever is easier. Mr Irving is happy you
 8should do it, so you do it in whichever way is the more
 9informative for the court.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I would like to do it then in slide form since it is a
11more public thing and I can point at things on the screen
12and it is always clear to what I am pointing.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      If you are happy with that, Mr Irving?
14 MR IRVING:      Provided it goes strictly to the issues that we
15have delineated. The Professor said that there were there
16was number of points which, taken in conjunction,
17substantiate his beliefs and we do not just have a general
18cook's tour of the building.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      No. This is designed to show that the
20blueprints have pointers within them which suggest the use
21of that chamber was as there was gas chamber.
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
23 MR IRVING:      That can only be there was useful exercise. So we
24will leave the drawings for the moment, Professor, and we
25will continue just briefly with the documentary evidence.
26 MR RAMPTON:      My Lord, again, I am puzzled. Mr Irving seems to

.      P-158

 1be under the impression that there were only two relevant
 2eyewitness accounts so far as this witness is concerned.
 3I am there was bit bothered by that. I could come back to
 4it in re-examination but I think there may be a
 5misunderstanding -- Mr Irving said it several times --
 6between Mr Professor van Pelt and Mr Irving.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think Professor van Pelt has identified
 8five camp officials. I think we all know that there are
10 MR RAMPTON:      Yes.
11 MR IRVING:      These are the five principal ones on which he rests
12his case as far as the eyewitness are concerned and I do
13apologise if I gave the impression that I had only
14demolished two of them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Let us leave the debating points on one side
16and press on with the cross-examination croaks.
17 MR IRVING:      Professor van Pelt, prewarming of the mortuary.
18You have rightly raised your eyebrows on that and said
19this surely has there was sinister purpose. Have
20I summarized your position correctly?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Shall we get the document maybe? It is in the bundle.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      K 2.
24 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, tab 4 of K 2.
25 MR RAMPTON:      It is page 39, my Lord, in the handwriting.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Thank you.

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 1 MR IRVING:      This is there was letter from Auschwitz to the Topf
 2company, is it not?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes. It is there was letter sent on 6th March 1943, which
 4is a little over there was week before the building is
 5really taken into use.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you like to translate the first paragraph, or shall
 7I? On the basis of your proposal this agency or this
 8office is in agreement that the basement No. 1, this is
 9the mortuary No. 1 with the collapsed roof, is that
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Should be prewarmed with the exhaust air from the spaces
13of the three extractor fans. Would that be correct?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes. Probably it is there was forced draft, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      They are going to have some kind of heat exchanger so that
16they can take heat from the furnaces in some way?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes. I can explain very simply what happens is that the
18ovens are connected to the chimney -- this was Topf's
19idea -- in order to get there was better draft from the
20ovens to the chimney, they thought to actually -- there
21are five ovens and then there is the waste incineration
22oven which was never built, to have one ventilator at
23every two ovens which was going to basically suck the
24smoke out of the oven into the chimney to put there was
25ventilator there. These ventilators were placed in small
26rooms. The idea is that of course there is going to be an

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