Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 215

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     No. I have made the calculation and ultimately what I do
 11943 so that is why it is important to look at 1943.
 2There is Satzenhausen in 1943 at 40,000 inmates, and it
 3almost used 3,000 kilos of Zyklon-B that year. If
 4Auschwitz would have been the same size as Satzenhausen
 5because Auschwitz had an average of 60,000 inmates that
 6year, it would have used four and a half thousand kilo if
 7indeed we could take the Satzenhausen figure as a point of
 8departure. In fact, Auschwitz uses 12,000. Then we look
 9at other camps, how much do they get, and we start to
10basically priorate population figures.
11 MR IRVING:      These figures are quite meaningless because of
12course we know that Auschwitz was at the centre of one of
13the worst epidemics in history.
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Not any more in 1943.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      That was summer 1942, was it not?
16 MR IRVING:      There was another epidemic in January 1943?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      There was a smaller epidemic in January 1943, which was
18dealt with rather quickly, and the outbreak of an epidemic
19in the gypsy camp in the summer of 1942 almost had no
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      The whole point is that you use Zyklon B preemptively.
22You do not use it as a mopping up operation. You use it
23to stop it happening again.
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Mostly.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      You fumigate barracks again and again and again.
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Survivors have testified to the fact that these barracks

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 1were not very often fumigated. I have recently, but
 2I will try to continue my arguments. But I will just
 3finish this sentence.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, it would be helpful to me at any
 5rate if he can complete this answer and then you can of
 6course cross-examine on it.
 7 MR IRVING:      I am restraining myself but that was an important
 8point to make I think.
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      OK. So, my Lord, so at the one side we can look at, kind
10of, the figures in other camps, and we then we look at
11Auschwitz. On page 26, I think demonstrates that the
12Auschwitz figure of 12,000 kilos is much higher than you
13would expect on the basis of deliveries to other camps if
14we take the different sizes into account.
15     Then the second kind of exercise one can do is
16to look at the way Zyklon-B could have been used in
17Auschwitz. So how much would have used in delousing in
18this year? This is, I start to do this on page 27 and it
19continues. It gets a very detailed kind of calculation.
20     I start out with -- the question is, where are
21the delousing rooms and what is the capacity of these
22delousing rooms? So in 1943, the total Zyklon B delousing
23space was 940 cubic metres. That is from the bottom of
24page 27.
25     Now, then we are going to look of how much, what
26concentration of hydrogen cyanide would have been used in

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 1these rooms, and I refer back to a German war time
 2document by the [German] which is the Health Institution
 3of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in Prague,
 4which instructs that one needs eight grammes of Zyklon-B
 5per cubic metre for 16 hours to kill vermins, such as
 6bugs, lice, flees, etc..
 7     Now, I assume that these delousing spaces would
 8have, indeed, used that concentration. It is the only
 9kind of basis I can work on, and that as a result of that
10is that if we have one gassing per day in each of these
11rooms -- now, this is very unlikely because there were
12large rooms actually in the Sturmlager in Auschwitz which
13eyewitness testimony says were only used irregularly, but
14now I am assuming for a moment that these eyewitness are
15wrong, and that they were used every day, I come to
16basically seven-and-a-half kilogrammes of Zyklon-B per day
17or 2,730 kilos of Zyklon-B per year if there is a
18delousing every day. So I have now in some way accounted
19at a maximum delousing capacity in the camp for 2,730
20kilos of Zyklon-B.
21     So now we are going to look at the average size
22of each barrack which is 12,000 -- and these are the
23barracks in Birkenhau right now -- 12,000 cubic metres, in
24which the barracks in the women's camp are slightly larger
25and barracks in building sector 2 are slightly smaller.
26They are around 1200. In the women's camp they were

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 1around 1250 and in Auschwitz they were larger.
 2     So if we take again the same concentration, this
 3would be quite a high concentration for the delousing of
 4barracks. One needs in Birkenhau six to 10 kilos per
 5barrack, and in Auschwitz one where they are two-storey
 6barracks, 12 to 20 kilos per barrack, which means that the
 7complete delousing of all the 192 dwelling barracks in
 8Birkenhau would take between 1200 and 1900 kilos, and all
 9the 30 ----
10 MR IRVING:      Each time, right?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Each time, and all the 30 dwelling barracks in Auschwitz
12would take 360 and 600 kilos of Zyklon-B. Then there were
13also workshop storage barracks, and they would have taken
14240 to 400 kilos, which means that the complete delousing
15of the camp (and we are now talking about Auschwitz 1 and
16Auschwitz 2) would have taken between 1750 and 2,900
18     Now, on the basis of this comparison with these
19other camps, I had established that an amount of 9,000
20kilos for Zyklon-B for Auschwitz in 1943 would have been
21within the kind of range of the possible. It would be the
22high end, but I would not have been surprised to see so
24     This means that if we take that 9,000 as a kind
25of bench mark of what a normal -- Auschwitz under normal
26conditions would have used, then we can have at least two

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 1complete delousing of all the barracks in the camp in
 3     Now, I take two eyewitness testimonies which is
 4one from Helen Zipitehau who was in the women's camp from
 5-- a Slovac Jew -- 1942 until the liberation in 1945.
 6She remembered three our four of these large delousings of
 7the whole women's camp in her two-and-a-half year stay.
 8Then Dr Ziegsmund Bendel in the Tesch trial declared that
 9he has only one delousing of the barracks during his 13
10month stay in Auschwitz. This is the kind of practical
11information we have about how many times. I mean, I do
12not have any more information on that.
13     It seems then that the 1750 to 2,000 -- that
14this let us say two or three, maybe two delousings in 1943
15of the whole camp would still bring us below the 9,000
16kilos of Zyklon used after all the gas chambers have been
17working every day, the delousing gas chambers, and
18basically we have had the delousing of the blocks.
19     I must make one kind of -- a particular
20thing must be noted, that if in the German document
21sometimes there is talking about the "Entlausung des
22Blocks", it means that the people in the block are going
23to be taken to be deloused. There is particular things.
24It says that block 11 was "entlaust" which means everyone
25was taken to be BW5A, the delousing building in the
26women's camp, or so on.

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