Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 215

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     No. The invoices themselves, and I have made a particular
 1available to us if one wants to raise that issue, which is
 2the Tesh and Stabanov accounts of total deliveries of
 3Zyklon B to Auschwitz in 1942 and 1943.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Am I right in saying that the chief accountant of the Tesh
 5company had a pocket notebook in which he entered all the
 6amounts that he supplied to Auschwitz and to various other
 7armed force branches and so on on a monthly basis? He
 8kept this notebook and it was introduced in evidence in
 9that trial?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      It was introduced as evidence. I think there were also
11supporting documents for that.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      But am I right in suggesting that these invoices to which
13I refer, the delivery notes which were introduced in
14Nuremberg, the 12 delivery notes, relating to the supply
15of Zyklon-B quantities to Auschwitz concentration camp and
16to Oranienburg concentration camp, they are relatively
17random? In other words, first of all, they are
18sequentially numbered, and the deliveries are sequentially
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, but ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      They are in sequence so there is nothing missing?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, but these particular invoices come with a very
23particular history.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you implying that there is anything suspect about the
25integrity of these documents?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, I do not imply that at all, but I think the way they

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 1were generated -- these were an appendix. They were
 2handed over together with an account of how they came in
 3the possession of the man who had it.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      We will come to the man to whom they are addressed in a
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      This man gives a record of the background of these
 7particular invoices which had to do with a particular
 8request which came to him from a certain Sturmanfuhrer
 9Gunter in Berlin.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Who was Eichmann's assistant, am I correct?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, can I ask you for my benefit
13because remember this is a completely new point to me.
14Can you put what you suggest one gets from the Oranienburg
15invoices in relation to the quantity of use of Zyklon-B
17 MR IRVING:      It is my very next question, my Lord.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Good. Thank you.
19 MR IRVING:      Am I right in suggesting that identical quantities,
20broadly speaking, of Zyklon-B were delivered to Auschwitz
21and Oranienburg over the time covered by those 12
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The invoices talk about identical quantities to
24Oranienburg and Auschwitz. But the important question is,
25is this all the deliveries of Zyklon-B to Auschwitz? Then
26we have to go back to actually the origin of these

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 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are looking just at these 12 documents to start with?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      If we only look at these 12 documents.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you remember my question, please, Professor van Pelt,
 5where I said is it correct to say that the deliveries are
 6numbered in sequence and that there are no missing
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I do not remember, but I will take your word for it.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Thank you very much. Am I right in saying that it has
10never been suggested that there were mass homicidal
11killings by gas chambers in Oranienburg?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, there were some experimental probably, accounts of
13experimental gassings of some Russians in Satzenhausen
14which was in fact a concentration camp in Oranienburg, but
15apart from that ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      In 1944?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      1942.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      We are talking about 1944?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I just want to be precise. The general question was posed
20and I do not want to say that there was never any Zyklon-B
21gassing. There are reports of that in that city.
22 MR IRVING:      Am I correct in saying that these invoices to which
23you are referring are from the early months of 1944? My
24memory says that.
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you tell the court to whom these invoices were

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 1personally addressed?
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      They were addressed to a man named Kurt Gerstein.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      G E R S T E I N. What is on the next line of the address,
 4can you remember, at Auschwitz concentration camp?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I have a copy somewhere.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      It seems important.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Berlin?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I have it in my report after page 11.
 9 MR IRVING:      Your Lordship will remember that Professor Evans
10said that I had not the slightest reason for saying that
11these were going for fumigation purposes in the camp.
12What does the next line read?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      After his name?
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. Does it not say that it is going to the
15Entwesungsabteilung or words to that effect?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Not in my copy.
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, it is not in the next line. It is actually in the
18invoice bit itself.
19 MR IRVING:      Yes?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      It says we did send at the 8th March from Dessau with a
21Wehrmacht Vorbrief, which means an army kind of
22transportation voucher, of the jedestatt Verwaltung
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Administration?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      At Dessau to the concentration camp in Auschwitz, the
26department of disinfestation and anzeufer is a plague.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is tortology, really. They are both the same thing are
 2they not?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No they are not exactly.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Disinfecting and disinfestation?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Seuche is an epidemic so anti-epidemic department.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Epidemic control?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Epidemic control department, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      This was in fact Kurt Gerstein's position, was it not?
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Not in Auschwitz. He was employed at the Hygienic
10Institute in Oranienburg.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it not significant that these huge quantities of Zyklon
12pellets are being sent to the office in charge of epidemic
13control at Auschwitz? What use is made of them
14subsequently of course is another matter. But this deals
15with the system again?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      What is significant is who will receive Zyklon when it
17arrives in Auschwitz. Again, from my witness testimony,
18we know that it was exactly that department which
19controlled all Zyklon in Auschwitz, and ultimately that
20was one of the reasons also that doctors always had to be
21present when Zyklon was applied one way or the other.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Now that we are with the person of Kurt Gerstein, will you
23tell the court if he is one of your eyewitnesses in any
24respect when you write your report?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No. Kurt Gerstein has made no statement whatsoever about
26Auschwitz or the gas chambers of crematoria 1, 2, 3, 4 and

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