Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 215

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     From Dessau to Auschwitz, my Lord, but before I go
 1been in. Some of the documents, I have been aware of the
 2surrounding document foliage which gives colour to
 3particular translations. I am perfectly prepared to
 4accept the interpretation of that word in any case.
 5     We were looking at section 5 called
 6"confessions" of your report. You quote the testimony
 7given in a later trial of the man called Mulka, who was on
 8Hess's staff, who assigned some of these driving permits.
 9I do not know the page number.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Perhaps the defendants can help?
11 MR RAMPTON:      We are going to try.
12 MR IRVING:      These permits were provided to the prosecution in
13the so-called Auschwitz Frankfurt trial.
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I have found the thing, by the way. It is page 320 in my
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      514 I was going to offer, but we will try to
17look at 320 first.
18 MR IRVING:      These were submitted as evidence in the Frankfurt
19Auschwitz trial and Mulka was cross-examined. The
20presiding judge on this occasion asked him about these
22     "Accused Mulka, have you signed permissions for
23trips to Dessau? (Mulka) I only remember one occasion. A
24permission was signed by Glucks and at the left bottom
25countersigned by me. It concerned a disinfection means.
26(Question) Here it reads 'For the resettlement of the

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 1Jews' -- one of documents which I produced, my Lord --
 2and 'In confirmation of the copy Mulka'. You knew what
 3the resettlement of the Jews meant? (Mulka) Yes, that was
 4known to me. (Q) And what were those materials for the
 5resettlement of the Jews? (Mulka) (silently) -- I am not
 6sure how one can do that -- Yes, raw materials. (Q) All
 7right then. That was thus Zyklon-B? (Mulka) (even more
 8silently) Yes, Zyklon-B".
 9     Of course, that is a rather odd kind of
10examination by the presiding judge, is it not, Professor
11van Pelt? You would have expected, certainly if
12Mr Justice Gray had been presiding there, he would have
13asked the obvious follow up question, what was it going to
14be used for? Either it was not asked, or it was not
15recorded, or you did not tell us?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Now. There are no dots in paragraph. The original page
17is in the binder so you can check the original page, if I
18have quoted the thing as a whole or if I have left
19something out, but I can assure you, my Lord, that
20I quoted the whole passage. So the third kind of option
21I would reject out of hand. I think that probably the
22problem in this court was that people knew too well what
23these words meant and what was implied by the question,
24and that they did not find it necessary to be very
25specific about it. If I had been the judge, I probably
26would have asked one more extra question, but the judge

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 1did not do it.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      In other words, there is some force in Mr
 3Irving's point? I think you are conceding that?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
 5 MR IRVING:      I am not for one moment implying, and I want to
 6make it quite plain, that Professor van Pelt has omitted
 7any response or any subsequent question which was material
 8to this issue, but it is a rather odd kind of examination,
 9that the presiding judge did not say, "And what were these
10materials to be used for to your certain knowledge",
11whereupon Mulka could either say, "Oh, they were going to
12be used for fumigation or they were going to be used for
13killing human beings". It is a negative piece of evidence
14and I will now ask Professor van Pelt, of these five
15tonnes of Zyklon-B pellets, or over five tonnes, that were
16picked up on a trip like this, in your estimation how much
17would be used for fumigation purposes? In other words,
18for innocent life saving purposes as opposed to homicidal
19purposes? What kind of percentage?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      That is very difficult to say. I have submitted to the
21court a document in which I calculate, on the basis of the
22figures for 1943, the likely use of Zyklon-B in
23Auschwitz. This is the supplement to the expert's
24opinion. I am happy to go through those figures.
25 MR RAMPTON:      My Lord, part I of the blue file.
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I am happy to go through those figures because, if you

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 1want me to be very specific, I can be very specific, and
 2I made quite detailed calculations. Of course the
 3question depends on how large is the camp at the time, how
 4many prisoners are there at the time, how many delousing
 5installations are available in the camp at the time, what
 6kind of transports are coming in, and so on.
 7 MR IRVING:      Let us see if you can talk in round figures. If it
 8was being used for fumigation purposes, it would be used
 9for two fumigation purposes, would it not, for fumigating
10barracks and for fumigating clothing and objects, shall we
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, you are right.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      For that purpose they had a purpose built fumigation
14chamber in Auschwitz, the one that we have seen with the
15blue stains on the outside walls?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      There are a number of them, in fact. There was one
17building ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      B W 5?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Also in Auschwitz I there was a building with two
20fumigation rooms but they were probably used consecutively
21in Auschwitz. Then there was a fumigation or delousing
22facility in Canada I which we discussed yesterday, where
23the hair was found and we have a fumigation capability in
24Zyklon, I am now talking only about Zyklon, in Birkenhau,
25in the women's camp.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      What other kind of fumigation equipment did they have

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 1apart from Zyklon? Did they have any other equipment at
 2any time in Auschwitz and Birkenhau?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Do you mean toxic equipment?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Any kind of methods of killing pests.
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The preferred method, if they could do that, they would
 6really prefer, was either by hot air or hot steam.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would not hot steam have a bad effect on textiles?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      That was one of many of the prisoners, inmates. They
 9complained that always, when their prisoner clothing had
10been disinfected, had come back from the so-called
11Entwesungsanlage as they were called, indeed they had
12shrunk considerably. This is a continuous problem in the
13history of the camp.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the entwesungsanlage is a familiar concept to you,
15then, that German word? It is disinfestation equipment?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it also familiar to you that, at a relatively late
18stage in the war years, the Siemens Company were
19installing an electrical system of pest killing based on
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, kurzwelle Entlausungsanlage.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      The short wave disinfestation equipment?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      This was rather like a microwave cooker for cooking the
25insects basically?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     

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