Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 215

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    Then we have also another German, we have the
 1report of what happened during that trip.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      So Lischmannstadt is close to Chelmno?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes, Chelmo -- I mean, Lischmannstadt is a very big city.
 4Chelmno is just a hamlet.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      That is what I was missing.
 6 MR IRVING:      Is it your submission, therefore, that this five
 7tonne truck load of Zyklon-B which was fetched, I think we
 8agree, the materials, from Dessau to Auschwitz, what was
 9the five tonne truck of Zyklon-B, what were the materials
10to be used for? Just for gassing people?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      OK, so we finished with this document now on the ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, would you answer my question?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I just want to know if I still have to take that into
14consideration in the answer or not.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, you do not, no.
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      OK.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are back on the trucks going back and forth between
18Auschwitz and Dessau.
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The trucks went back and forth to Dessau. They collected
20Zyklon-B and Zyklon-B was used in many different ways in
21the camp.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      But five tonnes seems an awful lot. That is the point
23I am making. Over five tonnes?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      But let us remember, just if we talk -- we do not talk
25about five tonnes Zyklon-B because when we ultimately talk
26about the way Zyklon-B is shipped, it is shipped in

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 1containers and then the containers themselves contain
 2earth in which the Zyklon-B is ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      The largest tin was one kilogram, was it not?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The largest tin was one kilogram, one kilogram of
 5Zyklon-B, but the original invoices from the shipping of
 6the Daigash of Zyklon-B always gives the brutto weight --
 7I mean the gross weight of what a tin is and then
 8ultimately also the net wet of Zyklon included in that.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      But the Zyklon is the pellets; it is not just the
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The pellets too, so in order to -- basically, if you get
12five tonnes weight of tins with contents, the total weight
13actually inside of Zyklon, of hydrogen cyanide, will be
14less than a tonne and I can give you the exact figure.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      You are saying that is the weight of the tin to be taken
16into account?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      The tin and, of the course, pellets in which the Zyklon
18has been taken in, and all that information is available
19and I can give it to you if you just give me time to look.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you suggesting that Zyklon is another word
21for hydrogen cyanide?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Zyklon is a commercial name for a product ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      For the pellet containing the hydrogen cyanide?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Containing the hydrogen cyanide.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      You are not trying to make out that Zyklon is the hydrogen
26cyanide element in the pellets?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      No, it is a commercial name.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      So if five tonnes of pellets were picked up, then it is
 3five tonnes of tins containing Zyklon-B pellets?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Yes. The truck is not going to carry more than five
 5tonnes, whatever it is. So, ultimately, the amount of
 6hydrogen cyanide which actually is carried by this truck
 7will be closer to because it is more or less, I think
 81/5th of the gross weight of a tin is actually hydrogen
 9cyanide will be closer to a tonne than five tonnes.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, are you putting forward a positive
11case as to what the materials for the Jew resettlement
12were if they were not Zyklon-B?
13 MR IRVING:      We are just going to move to document 0, my Lord,
14the first document in that next clip.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      So that is going to answer the question, is
17 MR IRVING:      Which I hope will go a long way towards answering
18the question. This comes from exactly the same kind of
19source. It is the one which the Holocaust historians
20never quote. They frequently quote the other two or three
21which are in this clip. This is received in Auschwitz on
22July 22nd 1942, again from Berlin: "I herewith give
23permission for one five tonne truck to drive from
24Auschwitz to Dessau and back to fetch gas for the gassing
25of the camp to combat the epidemic that has broken out".
26     Now you can read that document whichever way you

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 1wish, my Lord. It is quite possible, of course, that the
 2Defence will submit that this is just camouflage.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Let us ask Professor van Pelt.
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Absolutely I do not think it is camouflage. I think that
 5in my book at a certain moment (and Mr Irving picked it
 6up) I said that in the summer 1942 a lot of Zyklon was
 7being used in the camp, to indeed, basically, how you call
 8it, fumigate clothing and barracks because there was an
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      We will just remain with this for two or three more
11minutes, my Lord.
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      But it does not mean it was the exclusive use of Zyklon-B.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Just before the adjournment -- this largely ends that
14matter -- in your section 5 called "Confession"s, you have
15reproduced the testimony of a man called Muka, who was the
16adjutant of the Kommandant of Auschwitz at this time.
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      I do. Shall we turn to the particular page?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      These permission slips to dispatch the trucks were
19frequently signed by Muka, were they not?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]      Let us go to the page. I am happy, I know what you refer
21to, statements made in the Frankfurt trial, but I do not
22exactly know where it is right now. Do you have a page
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Only that it is in (v) "Confessions". My pagination,
25unfortunately ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think, as we have not got the reference to

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 1hand, shall we deal with that at 2 o'clock?
 2 MR IRVING:      Until 2 o'clock? Very well, my Lord.
 3 (Luncheon adjournment)
 4 MR IRVING:      My Lord, might I ask that you remind those present
 5that we are not sitting tomorrow in case some people make
 6the mistake and come tomorrow and do not realize that we
 7are not sitting?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      You are quite right that we are not sitting
 9tomorrow, but also on Friday, what I would like to do is
10perhaps start an half an hour earlier than normal and
11probably finish earlier than normal as well, so sit at 10
12on Friday. Yes.
13 MR IRVING:      From Dessau to Auschwitz, my Lord, but before I go
14on, can I remark on something in my translation about
15field kitchens? Firstly, as your Lordship is aware,
16I have never denied the killings in Chelmno and, if those
17documents are connected in any way, then I fully accept
18that and that is a logical interpretation. Secondly, my
19wartime German medical dictionary says "ofen" is a stove.
20That is a translation for it. So it is not actually in
21the form of a grating which would be gussen in German,
22I believe. So I think, although I am quite prepared to
23accept Professor van Pelt's interpretation of that
24document, not being aware of the surrounding foliage of
25the documents which Professor van Pelt has, this, your
26Lordship will appreciate, is rather the position I have

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