Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 9: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 194 of 194

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    Yes, but there is one problem, and that is the column
 1remains. So it is not a column to which one of these mesh
 2columns was attached. The mesh columns were attached to
 3the first, the third, the fifth and the seventh.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Fortuitously, the one that remains was the one that did
 5not have the wire mesh?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, or sadly so for your case maybe. So, in any case, we
 7cannot draw any conclusions from the nature of the
 8formwork around that column because that is not a column
 9where the wire-mesh column was. So, I mean ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am talking about the ceiling.
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     There is a one little bit of ceiling only visible. The
12amount of ceiling is only a few square metre there. You
13can crawl under the roof of Leichenkeller No. 1. I have
14done it and I have looked at that roof.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor van Pelt, would it surprise you to hear that the
16Poles have made 400 photographs of the underside of that
17roof in an attempt to map every square inch of it looking
18for those holes and they failed?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     But the problem is that holes are not under that part.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The holes are not under that part?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I mean, the roof falls back into the ground.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Here is a map of the roof as it now is. This is the large
23yellow page that I gave his Lordship, right? There are no
24holes in that. It has been mapped from top and bottom.
25The only holes that exist are where it has been punched
26through in recent years by people curious about what is

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 1going on underneath, and you can see that is the case
 2because the steel reinforcing bars have been bent back,
 3and the one place where the pillar has also broken
 4through. The holes that your eyewitnesses refer to, as
 5you correctly say, cannot be found for the simple reason
 6they were never there and there is not the slightest trace
 7of them being there, and I also draw your attention, my
 8Lord, if you go back to page 184 ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
10 MR IRVING:     --- about 10 lines down: "The showers were fitted
11to small blocks of wood sealed into the concrete roof of
12the gas chamber". We have probably all seen these little
13blocks of wood that get embedded in the concrete when it
14is poured, so that things can be screwed to those little
15blocks of wood. Those little blocks of wood also are not
16in the ceiling, as you can see, my Lord, as I gave you two
17photographs in a heap this morning. I gave your Lordship
18two photographs, colour photographs, in a heap this
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am just underlining that.
21 MR IRVING:     I cannot find mine.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have got ----
23 MR IRVING:     Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- the ones you gave me.
25 MR IRVING:     One is of the underside of the concrete roof and
26you can see -- exactly, my Lord -- you can see the

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 1condition of the concrete roof underneath this messy slab
 2is in. You can see the wooden markings on the concrete
 3where formwork was all these years ago when they built
 4crematorium No. 2 in Auschwitz. You can appreciate that
 5if there had been those holes in the roof, which are the
 6cardinal linchpin of the Defence in this action, they
 7would have been found by now. They have not found them,
 8and so their eyewitness evidence collapses because these
 9people are exposed for the liars they were.
10     My Lord, it is four minutes to 4. Unless
11Mr Rampton wishes to say something to repair the damage at
12this point ----
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     My Lord, may I respond to this?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but not until 10 be 30 tomorrow
15morning. What I would be like to know from you then is
16what evidence there is from the likes of Taiber about the
17way in which the pellets were inserted into the gas
18chamber. In other words, are there other witnesses who
19describe that?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     There are other witnesses.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will have to deal with Kuhler as well,
22will we not, Mr Irving?
23 MR IRVING:     I think so, my Lord, to have a look at the
24wire-mesh columns.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I hope you will have enough time. If you get
26into difficulties I will be sympathetic. 10.30 tomorrow.

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 1 < (The witness stood down)
 2(The Court adjourned until the following day)

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