Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 9: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 194

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    My Lord, the only other document I draw to your Lordship's
 1Vedag, V-E-D-A-G.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, I noticed that.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     And it is the United Cardboard Factory of Silesia. It is
 4an invoice to Auschwitz crematorium -- I am sorry, it is
 5an invoice to the central construction office in
 6Auschwitz, 28th July, an invoice concerning the Auschwitz
 7crematorium for ----
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     "Entwesungsanlage"?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Just the first two or three lines inside the box on the
10invoice shows that it is for sealing work, S-E-A-L-I-N-G
11work, carried out for the Entwesungsanlage -- E-N-T ----
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And that is the delousing chamber?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Disinfestation chamber, or disinfestation installation,
14strictly speaking. I mean, we may have an interesting
15discussion with Professor van Pelt about precisely what
16that was, but certainly it tends to bear out my contention
17of one of the uses to which that building was being put.
18My Lord, that is all I wish to say from the witness box.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Just let me get that. Thank you very much. I think you
20can go back and resume your role as ----
21 MR RAMPTON:     Could I just ask one question before he does, my
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Arising out of that?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it is only an administrative question.
25 < Cross-examined by MR RAMPTON
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I want to know, Mr Irving, whether you received yesterday

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 1an invoice, I think it is, or something of that nature --
 2I cannot find it at the moment -- dated 13th April 1943
 3from Topf to the Zentralebauleitung at Auschwitz
 4concerning [German - document not provided].
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I received just a loose document faxed through to me
 6sometime in the evening, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did receive it? That is all I wanted to know.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good. Thank you very much.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That does not tell me very much.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Has your Lordship not got it?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, well, if I have, I am not aware of having
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I be shown a copy now in case there is any comment
15I wish to make on it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There are an awful lot of spare bits of paper
17flowing around. It seems extraordinary when ----
18 MR RAMPTON:     This arose simply because yesterday for the first
19time Mr Irving brought to our attention a document dated
2020th August 1943 which on its second page, as we now see,
21is a bill from Topf, or an invoice, it mentions
22"Entwesungsanlage", as does the piece of paper that he
23has just given to us and to your Lordship. There is, in
24fact, another piece of paper which is very likely related
25to it which as its last item but one mentions two Topf
26entwesungsofen ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- for crematorium (ii). Those are delousing ovens?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I make no comment beyond that. I will hand that up to
 5your Lordship because I am sure your Lordship will need it
 6in due course. It goes with the other two documents from
 7Mr Irving's side.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall I put it in J as well because I am
 9really anxious we keep an eye -- I seem to have the Rudolf
10report at the same time.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the Rudolf report, my Lord.
12 MR RAMPTON:     It might be convenient to have them in
13chronological order. That document I have just handed up
14will be the first. The second would be the one that
15Mr Irving has just handed in dated 28th July. The last
16would be the document we got last night, if we did, which
17is the invoice from Topf.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That is the only questions, so would
19you mind going back.
20 <(The witness stood down)
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, you are going to call your
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, my Lord, I am. I preface calling him with
24this request, perhaps is the right word. I have the
25impression, and so do others, that the question of the
26various Polish reports may be a little bit confused.

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 1     The Rudolf report only came up yesterday.
 2Professor van Pelt has not read the Rudolf report. He
 3does not have a copy with him, but he does know something
 4about it. What I propose to do is to ask just a very few
 5questions in chief just to get that question straight, if
 6your Lordship permits it?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course. Anything, as it were, that has
 8surfaced since he did his written report, I think that is
 9entirely proper.
10 MR RAMPTON:     This arises out of two things, one the Rudolf
11report mentioned for the first time yesterday, and second
12what I perceive to have been a bit of a confusion about
13the sequence of the Polish reports because there were, in
14fact, three.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. The one we have had is ----
16 MR RAMPTON:     That is 1945.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- the 1945 zinc cover.
18 MR RAMPTON:     That is right, and the bag of hair.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But there is Dawidowski as well?
20 MR RAMPTON:     No . My belief is -- no, I am cautious about this
21-- that the 1945 report was done at the request of
22Dawidowski. Then in 1990 there is a preliminary
23Markievitch report which we do not have and then in 1994
24there is what one might call the final Markievitch report,
25a part of which is in that first volume of the bundle
26I handed in yesterday.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. Mr Irving, I think that is right,
 2that Mr Rampton should be able just to ask these
 3supplementary questions about a new aspect of the case.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I also make this request. Professor van
 5Pelt has a family Bible which has been in his family since
 6before the war. May he swear on that?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course.
 9<Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Professor van Pelt, are your full names Robert Jan
11van Pelt?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you made a report for the purposes of this case?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I have.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you content that that report, save for some few
16questions which I shall ask you in a moment, shall stand
17as your evidence-in-chief in this case?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I am content.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you confirm its accuracy so far as it contains
20statements of fact?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I do.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And, so far as it contains expressions of opinion, do you
23confirm that those expressions of opinion are fair?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I do.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Professor van Pelt, there is only one thing I want to ask
26you about. You heard what it was. Do you remember

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