Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 9: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 194

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    OK. There are -- basically, there is a calculation made
 1by Jahrling who was a Zuvielarbeiter which means he is not
 2in the SS hierarchy in the camp, and he talks about the
 3use of coke in the crematoria. The heading is only about
 4No. (ii), but ultimately he makes a calculation for all
 5the crematoria, and he comes to a use per 12 hours. He
 6does that for 2,800 kilos in 12 hours for crematorium
 7(ii); 2,800 kilos in crematorium (iii); 932 kilos in
 8crematorium (iv) and 932 kilos in crematorium (v), which
 9is a total of 8,264 kilos in 12 hours.
10     Then he has made some calculation mistakes
11because a couple of days later, which is the 17th -- the
12first document is on 12th March -- he comes back to his
13calculation and what seems to have happened is that he
14made a calculation, he comes to 2,800 kilos for
15crematorium (ii), again 2,800 for crematorium (iii), 1,120
16for (iv) and 1,120 for No. (v), a total of 7,840 kilos in
1712 hours with the seven tonnes or seven-and-a-half tonnes.
18 MR IRVING:     Professor van Pelt, would you read the final
19paragraph of that document beginning with the word "dieses
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Then he says, ""dieses sind spitzenleistung".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     "These are maximum amounts, maximum figures"?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. "It is difficult to" -- [German - document not
24provided] -- "indicate how much it will be per year
25because it would not be known for how many days or how
26many hours or how many days we can, we must heat the

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 1thing" which means he is prepared to give it on a daily
 2basis but not more on a yearly basis because if the
 3crematorium is going to be used every day or not, he does
 4not know.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you like to do the ----
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     May I just finish the document, discussing the document,
 7and I am happy to consider your question. In the
 8paragraph above it, he says something else. [German -
 9document not provided] It goes on the basis of an earlier
10thing which means that when you work constantly
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Around the block?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     --- around the clock, then the amount of coke needed is
14much less. So here we have, on the basis of this
15document, you can make a relatively simple calculation
16because we know the German document which has been
17challenged here in court -----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Precisely. This is what throws up the German document as
19being unreliable?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, it is not. We have two documents, one which talks
21about incineration capacity, and one which talks about the
22coke use. It is about the same buildings. On the basis
23of that, we know that, we can calculate the amount of coke
24which is going to be used per corpse which is not a happy
25calculation, I must say, but the bottom line is you come
26to three-and-a-half kilo of coke per corpse.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you really, sincerely believe that you can burn one
 2corpse with enough coke that you could fit in one of these
 3water bottles, is that what you are saying?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I would like to point out there are two documents which
 5support this.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you just pause for a second?
 7Three-and-a-half kilos of coke per corpse, one has to put
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That is when the ----
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is assuming a rate of incineration equivalent to that
11in the document of 28th June 1943 which Mr Irving
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
14 MR IRVING:     Can I ask, Professor van Pelt, has it ever crossed
15your mind that this document of 28th June 1943 might not
16be authentic or a document of integrity? Did you ever
17investigate that possibility? Did you check any details
18about it? Did you just accept it at face value?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I think that the document is in perfect accordance with
20all the other documents.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know anything about the history of that document,
22where it came from?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, I do not know. Moscow, it has been in Moscow. It has
24been made available, for example, in the Vienna trial. It
25was available earlier. There was another copy of this
26document in a Didier archive in Dumburg. This document

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 1has been known for many years, since shortly after the
 2war. The document seems to be perfectly in line with
 3other documents. It is a carbon copy. It is not on
 4letter head, like most of the copies in the
 5Zentralebauleitung. It seems to be sitting nice in its
 6sequence of other documents. So I have no reason to doubt
 7the integrity of the file or the integrity of the document
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor van Pelt, you were sitting in court yesterday
10when I challenged that document piece by piece, and
11indicated the discrepancies on the document which gave not
12just one discrepancy but several discrepancies which
13indicated there was every reason to doubt whether this was
14an original document or whether it is was, indeed, a true
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     You can do that, but I have not changed my mind on this.
17I do not think that you have brought any kind of
18convincing evidence for me to change my mind on this
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     May I ask you the following then, is it not surprising
21that nowhere in the entire Auschwitz construction files,
22in Moscow or in the present Auschwitz State Museum, do you
23find one single other document that reflects the same
24figures or figures of the same magnitude?
25 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     We can talk -- the issue of incineration capacity, how do
26we know about incineration capacity and how do we know

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 1about the coke use? We have this document, we have
 2eyewitness testimony of people who worked the ovens and we
 3have statements by the people who ran the camp. There is
 4a convergence between those things.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Except for one thing ----
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Now, if you challenge, if you challenge the coke use,
 7I will have to bring up, and, I am sorry, I do not have
 8the particular patent, but it is a little technical
 9history. There is a specificity in the design of the
10ovens in Auschwitz which is, basically, that they worked
11with compressed -- that air was blown into the muffle.
12Normally, what happens in these ovens is that ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     The flame does not touch the body?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, actually frebrennen did happen in the Auschwitz ovens;
15it was not simply incineration.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, they would self-combust? When they were raised to a
17certain temperature, they would self-combust?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That is the idea of a normal incineration. In Auschwitz,
19actually, the ovens -- the difference between the ovens is
20that one element which is used in normal ovens is with a
21heat kind of regenerator in Auschwitz was replaced by
22compressed air which was blown into the oven. Now ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would this account for the drop of normal coke usage from
2435 kilograms in the crematorium Gussen concentration camp
25per body to 3.5 in Auschwitz, in your opinion?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     

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