Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 9: Electronic Edition

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    Mr Irving, we are going to have Professor van
 1reason I will try to accommodate you.
 2 MR IRVING:     That would have been the request that I would
 3have ultimately submitted, my Lord.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, when you have one expert after
 5another, as Mr Rampton was forecasting will happen in
 6about 10 days' time, that is when I think your
 7difficulties will be at their worst. If then you want
 8time between the witnesses to prepare yourself, then again
 9within reason I will try to accommodate you.
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, as to my remarks about the Second
11Defendant also going to Stockholm, that was based on the
12Swedish government's announcement that she was attending.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you have been told by Mr Rampton that
14she is not.
15 MR IRVING:     She is listed in all the agenda at the conference
16as a speakered.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well, I think it is unlikely she will be
18going in view of what Mr Rampton has said.
19 MR IRVING:     Very well, my Lord. They are the only submissions
20I had to make on that. I wished really to draw to your
21Lordship's attention, that is all, that things have been
22taken out of my hands in an unsatisfactory way.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well, my function is to make sure that
24you are not disadvantaged because you have no lawyers.
25I cannot provide you with a back up team, obviously, but
26I am trying to look after your interests, as judges always

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 1do with litigants in person. But so far, I do not believe
 2you have suffered any disadvantage.
 3 MR IRVING:     Well, only inasmuch as I have not had the
 4opportunity to put before your Lordship the documents on
 5which I rely as yet which would be the normal sequence of
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You could have done that before the trial
 9 MR IRVING:     Well, my Lord, the bundles had been prepared
10entirely by the Defence. They are not agreed bundles.
11They have large lacunae in them, as your Lordship will see
12when the time comes.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but you knew that you had the
14opportunity to put before the court any bundles of
15documents that you wanted to rely on.
16 MR IRVING:     This is precisely what we were working on when the
17Defendants came charging in with a reversal of the
18timetable, my Lord. This is basically the problem, yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Right now you want to take me through
20some documents, do you, before Professor van Pelt goes
21into the witness box?
22 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, can I, first of all, add one thing before
23that discussion is closed? It is this. I think I need to
24say it because inevitably sometimes Mr Irving has
25attempted to use the court as a public platform. True it
26is there is an inequality of resources; true also it is,

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 1however, that my clients are defending a suit brought by
 2Mr Irving. It reminds one of the old French proverb:
 3"These animals are very naughty. They defend themselves
 4when they are attacked".
 5 MR IRVING:     That proverb cuts both ways, Mr Rampton.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well, that is enough of that. Now, do
 7you want to do this now? Is that what you are proposing?
 8 MR IRVING:     Do I wish to?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Address me on these documents you handed in
10this morning?
11 MR IRVING:     One or two of them, my Lord. The others are there
12purely for the purposes of being in your Lordship's hands
13when we start with Professor van Pelt.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just so we get things done in the right way,
15I think you ought to go back into the witness box just to
16deal with whatever evidence you want to give arising out
17of yesterday. It is just so we know which hat you are
18wearing, advocate or witness. It is difficult, but I
19think it is quite important to keep an eye on the
21 <MR IRVING, recalled.
22< Examined by the Court
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right?
24 THE WITNESS:     The first document, my Lord, is the one headed
25"Institute for Historical Review". This is a letter
26written by the Institute for Historical Review to

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 1Professor Gerald Fleming who is an acknowledged expert on
 2the Holocaust.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     And I draw your Lordship's attention purely to the
 5paragraph on the second page which I printed in bold face,
 6the last paragraph. Your Lordship was enquiring about
 7what other reports after the Leuchter report continued to
 8support that contention, and here is a very useful summary
 9of them: "Rudolf reached essentially the same conclusion
10as had American gas chamber specialist, Fred Leuchter, in
11his 1988 forensic investigation of the allied gas chambers
12at Auschwitz and Birkenhau. You may also be aware that as
13a result of Leuchter's findings, the Institute of Forensic
14Research in Cracow conducted a partial investigation and
15that its forensic analysis, given in a
16confidential September 1990 report, corroborated
17Leuchter's findings". Your Lordship may remember that
18I referred to the fact ---
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, you did.
20 MR IRVING:     --- that the Auschwitz authority had locked it
21away. "This report was published in the summer 1991
22Journal of Historical Review. Moreover, Austrian
23engineer, Walter Luftel, who was, in fact, the President
24of the Austrian Federation of Engineers,
25explicitly endorsed Leuchter's findings in the detailed
26March 1992 report published in the winter 1992 to 1993

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 1Journal, and the German engineer, Wolfgang Schuster, and
 2the American research chemist, William Linsky, reached
 3conclusions similar to those of Leuchter and Rudolf".
 4More of that is relevant, but that is the only paragraph
 5that I would just draw to your Lordship's attention to
 6bear out the fact that Leuchter was not one lone voice
 7crying in the wilderness.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are taking a relaxed view of the rules
 9about evidence, but this is Mr Weber of the Institute for
10Historical Review telling Professor Fleming what he says
11these various individuals concluded.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Are you going to show me the Rudolf report in due course?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     The Rudolf report ----
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Not now.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I should have handed it to your Lordship.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do not worry now, but this is rather third hand, is it
18not? That is what I am saying.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is, my Lord, but the Rudolf report is the glossy blue
20publication which I brought in about a dozen copies this
21morning, and through an oversight it obviously was not
22listed in discovery for which I do apologise. That was an
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, that is that?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, the only other document I draw to your Lordship's
26attention is the one headed top left, it is an invoice

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