Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 191

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    No. This is a set of tests done by the forensic
 1Zane/Dawidowski exercise, but it is, in fact, a separate
 2document, and it is the document which is at tab 6 of the
 3new file.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the reference to that report is note
 5310, is it not?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     That is right.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot for the life of me see where the
 8evidence that you say one derives from your tab 6 is to be
 9found in Professor van Pelt's report.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Well, because, my Lord, the first page under
11[German- document not provided] reports that they took --
12were sent to them four complete and two damaged covers,
13clasps or grilles from the ventilation openings which
14during inspection of crematorium No. (ii) in Birkenhau
15were found and which from the ventilation openings of the
16gas kammer, Leichenkeller No. 1, of this crematorium came
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I am probably being very thick,
19but what is the significance of that?
20 MR RAMPTON:     In 1945, in May 1945, the Cracow laboratory was
21sent some zinc covers from the ventilation openings
22described by Michael Kula in his testimony: "Ventilation
23openings from the gas chamber of crematorium (ii) at
24Birkenhau". They tested them and they found that there
25were traces of hydrogen cyanide.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where do I get that from tab 6?

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     You get that at the end. It is page ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think Professor van Pelt makes that
 3observation at all.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, he does. Page 3, that is right. He
 5reports, does Professor van Pelt, that the zinc covers
 6(which I just told your Lordship about) were "dislocated
 7when the demolition squads dynamited the gas chambers, but
 8six of them were retrieved in the rubble of crematorium
 9(ii) and sent for analysis in the forensic laboratory in
10Cracow. The laboratory report noted that these were
11covered with a thin white colour of the strongest smelling
12deposit. The laboratory retrieved 7.2 grammes of the
13deposit ... (reading to the words)... Sulphuric acid was
14added to this solution and the resulting gas was absorbed
15in an absorbent material. This was divided into two and
16subjected to two different tests" which your Lordship can
17see described on pages 2 and 3 of this document, "each of
18which revealed the presence of hydrogen cyanide".
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much. That is what I needed
20and I have now got it, thank you. That you accept,
21Mr Irving, do you not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 MR RAMPTON:     They also retrieved a paper sack, and this is the
24second paragraph on the first page of the report, which
25had marked on it a weight of 25.5 kilograms of hair, which
26they say was taken from the corpses of females after

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 1gassing and before burning in the crematorium ovens in
 2Birkenhau. "Shorn" is the word, or "shaved off". They
 3tested that too and in that also they found traces of
 4hydrogen cyanide. That is not in van Pelt, but it is in
 5the report.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, do you want to say anything about
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I do not think that the human hair takes us any
 9further, my Lord, because the Germans did subject
10everything that went through the camp to fumigation.
11So ----
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, why would human hair have been fumigated?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Because they processed it.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What, after the death of the person concerned?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we do not know when this human hair was actually cut
16off, my Lord, whether it was cut of -- the evidence that
17I have is when the prisoners arrived as part of the
18hygiene methods -- Mr Rampton is shaking his head.
19 MR RAMPTON:     No. Do you know where it was found, Mr Irving?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In the gas chamber, the alleged gas chamber.
21 MR RAMPTON:     No, that is where it was "gischoren", that is
22where the killing was killed?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is what it says in the report, but, of course, I
24have not accepted that paragraph.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know, Mr Irving, where this 25.5 kilo bag of hair
26was found?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It does not actually say in the report.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It will not help you to look in the report; you will not
 3find it there?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Then I do not know where it was found, no.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not know?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would it surprise you that it was found in the part of the
 8camp called "Canada"?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That is where all the stolen property was kept.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is correct.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then what is this worth as evidence?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Everything from Canada was fumigated.
13 MR RAMPTON:     What is it worth as evidence? Well, what it shows
14is, my Lord, this is hair, as the report says, taken from
15people after they had been gassed.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     As the report alleges. This is a prosecution report being
17prepared for the prosecution of criminals.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     25.5 kilograms of hair in total is the hair of about,
19what, 500 women?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. I have not done any calculations. It
21seems to me, I think that he is being very cautious about
22that weight. As he himself says, that is the weight
23marked on the bag, but I think that you would have had to
24have a bag the size of an elephant to make it weigh 50lbs
25of human hair.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But, you see, Mr Irving, you have accepted that that is

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 1what it says. You may not like it, but that is what it
 2says. Can I ask you to turn -- I am sorry about this, my
 3Lord, but it is necessary because Mr Irving commented on
 4this report to his friend, Mr Zundel, in September 1989.
 5My Lord, that is in tab 8 ----
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of which of these files?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     The same file.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     The same one as the report, K1. Have you got a
 9page there? I have not got a page on mine. It is your
10letter of 19th September.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You write to Mr Zundel: "The two enclosures appear to
13be" -- has your Lordship got that? It has a 1241 in the
14top right-hand corner. 7, my Lord, I think.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
16 MR RAMPTON:     "The two enclosures appear to be an initial
17counter attack on the Leuchter report. It may be that we
18have to take them seriously, particularly if the Polish
19one when translated contains firm evidence of cyanide in
20the hair of the young Jewish women or in the zinc
21basket". That is plainly, is it not, Mr Irving, a
22reference to this 1945 Cracow ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Unquestionably, yes, which at that time we only had in the
24Polish, I think.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why do you use the words, "It may be we have to take this
26one seriously"? What is that meant to mean?

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